Authenticity & Activism with Karma Jenkins
SHOW NOTES
In today’s episode, Karma discusses:
the intersection of art and activism
the power of using one's voice to create change
the lack of diversity and representation behind the scenes in the entertainment industry and the need for more diverse voices and perspectives in decision-making roles
taking care of one’s mental health and finding outlets for self-expression and joy outside of the industry
the power of being true to oneself in auditions
Karma Jenkins is a multi-hyphenate artist who has been living and working in New York City for the last 12 years. She’s had the privilege to work across the United States at reputable regional stages such as The Old Globe, 5th Ave Theatre & The MUNY. Recently, Karma has been dipping her toes into the world of TV/film and in the production side of a few upcoming new stage works.
Her work on screen includes The Time Traveler's Wife (HBO), Ghost: PowerBook II (Starz) and The Last O.G (TBS). You can also catch her in recent commercials for Amazon Prime & William Hill Winery. Karma is a member of SAG/AFTRA & Actors Equity.
Karma believes that the change we want to happen starts in our own backyards and she is dedicated to the idea that art and activism go hand in hand.
Follow along on Karma’s journey: @karmanoelle
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica
Hello and welcome to The Story Project. Today’s guest is Karma Jenkins, a multi-hyphenate artist who has been living and working in New York City for the last 12 years. She’s had the privilege to work across the United States at reputable regional stages such as The Old Globe, 5th Ave Theatre & The MUNY. Recently, Karma has been dipping her toes into the world of TV/film and in the production side of a few upcoming new stage works.
Her work on screen includes The Time Traveler's Wife (HBO), Ghost: PowerBook II (Starz) and The Last O.G (TBS). You can also catch her in recent commercials for Amazon Prime & William Hill Winery. Karma is a member of SAG/AFTRA & Actors Equity.
Karma believes that the change we want to happen starts in our own backyards and she is dedicated to the idea that art and activism go hand in hand.
In today’s episode, Karma discusses the power of using one's voice to create change, the need for more diverse voices and perspectives in decision-making roles, taking care of one’s mental health, finding outlets for self-expression and joy outside of the industry and the power of being true to oneself in auditions.
Please enjoy this episode with Karma Jenkins…
Hi Karma.
Karma
Hello!
Jessica
Thank you for being here. Okay, so I'm gonna start off with one question, which is, what is your human bio? So what is your bio that exists off of your resume?
Karma
off my resume is I'm Karma Jenkins. I've lived in the city for almost 13 years. I am originally from Portland, Oregon. So nice and kooky, keeping it weird over there. I, let's see, I love cooking. I'm like, I obsessed with coming home and making my food at night. It's like one of my favorite things of the day is thinking, what way can I use this can of beans I have? I just love coming up with new ideas. I have a lot of plants. What else? I play the ukulele. And in my free time, I still dabble and sometimes do it professionally with makeup and special effects makeup. And those are, yeah, some of the really fun things that I like to do.
Jessica
That's so awesome. Do you name your plants?
Karma
Oh yeah. They all have... This one is Erin and that is because I'm babysitting it for my friend Erin. So we just named it Erin. This is Rave Girl, which just because like, you know, you wear neon to raves and she's a neon pothos. So, but you know, they all have different silly names that help us go around. We're like, oh, Mervyn needs water. Oh.
Jessica
What's this one's name in the frame?
Jessica
Okay. love.Yeah.
Karma
rave girl have you checked on her for a second? So we like doing that. So yes, they do have names.
Jessica
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I love that so much. And then I wanted to also ask you about cooking because I hate cooking. And I really I know and I really try hard. I've had a complicated relationship with food. I've had food restrictions that I've either put on myself or that doctors have put in me all these things. So it's complicated for me. Can you help me?
Karma
I mean, yes, I didn't actually cook for so many years. When I used to live in my Hell's Kitchen apartment back in the day, we just had such a small kitchen that there was not, like you couldn't even have a chopping board. Like you couldn't even prep food. So in my head, I was like, well, I'm in the land of food in Hell's Kitchen. So I'm just gonna budget to.
Jessica
Hmm.
Karma
grab and go all the time. And then when I moved into my apartment, now we have all this space. I was like, what am I doing? Like I could be cooking. And then I found out that I had to be gluten free. So that also came with a lot of, you know, forced dietary restrictions. So then that was like, okay, well, I can't, you know, I can't just go down and get Chinese food because soy sauce has gluten in it. So I was like, how can I make that?
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Right. Right.
Karma
noodles at home and then I started just discovering all these different things and now when I do like rare occasion order food or go out sometimes I'm like hmm it's not as good as when we made it but I mean okay so I don't know if you're on TikTok I'm not like a TikToker I like watching them I have a few silly ones but I'm not a TikToker but the food TikTok accounts they really inspire me.
Jessica
Mmm. A little, a little.
Karma
It's my cat. She's just, she's just gained permission to be back in this room. And I think that she is, I think she's loving it. I think she's exploring a lot right now. Cause I don't know what she just thought. She wants to be on camera, but I get it girl. Um, I hope it's fine. Looks fine. But yes, tick tock and.
Jessica
Whoa. She wanted to participate. I don't blame her. Yeah.
Karma
looking at food videos, I'm a visual person, so I could read a recipe and I'm like, I don't know what that means, but I can watch somebody, you know, chop a couple things and put them in and I'm like, I feel like I could do that. That seems easy enough. So that's my only recommendation is like, if I watch it and it doesn't seem like it's Food Network making a red wine reduction, which feels out of my league, you know, I'm like, oh, four ingredients, sure, sure, I can try that.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Right, right. So maybe you can send me a few gluten -free recipes to start with. Like basic, okay. Okay, I'm really trying because I want to be open to it and I have gluten -free but I also have other things I have to limit. So it is hard for me to eat out anyway. And I need to, and also it's cheaper and it's better because you know exactly what you're putting into your body.
Karma
Keep it simple. Okay. Oh, I have so many. I have so many good ones. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. I love that.
Jessica
So, okay, you're gonna inspire me to prioritize that a little bit more. Yeah, okay, fantastic. So I'm gonna start us right off the bat with what you put in your bio, which is that you believe in art being equivalent to activism. Did I say that right? Okay, can you tell me more about that and how you discovered that that was such an integral part of who you are?
Karma
Yeah, you know, with the way that you're young and you see the world one way, and then as you get older and more life events are happening and things are happening in the world, and especially I think the pinnacle when the world was shut down during 2020, we all kind of felt so helpless and we're like, what can we do? And people will throw out things like,
Jessica
and your beliefs.
Karma
If you don't use straws, this will help. If you do this and this and this, this will help. But it feels like you have a never ending list of tasks that's supposed to help on a global scale, if we're all doing them. But we so often discuss in my household, I would say a teacher that's their field, hopefully they're doing their best part to help guide.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
the youth in that department and every other category. But what do we have in our backyard is I'm a performer, I'm an artist. So I feel like it's my responsibility as an artist to put forth art that is truthful and make a change to help the actors, to use my platform and my voice if I am gonna gain any success. That is what I can control and that's my own backyard. And if we are holding all of these different fields accountable, then we should be coming up to a better place. So that's just where I'm like thinking that they coincide or that that's the avenue that I can take. Because I can take a short shower, I can write letters to Congress, I can do all of these things, but my voice and my talent lies with doing it in this capacity.
Jessica
How has your voice developed over time?
Karma
in such a big way. When I started theater, I was, I come from the dance background first. I grew up as a competition dancer and I did theater a little bit in middle school on the side. And I don't really take it seriously because I didn't really see anybody that looked like me. So it never really, I never really thought of it as an actual path. However, in dance, I did see people that looked like me, especially being on the West Coast and music videos in LA. When I would go to LA, I was like, well, everyone looks like me here, so this must be the path. But once I came to New York, it was such a new world for me of really gaining that clarity that I used to just say, like, sit back and don't say anything. Just don't, don't.
Jessica
Hmm.
Karma
ruffle feathers, don't, you know, you're just grateful to be here because it always just felt like the other shoe could drop at any moment because I felt like this was not a, this was not a world that was welcoming me in, for lack of a better phrase. So I just thought, don't say anything, take the crumbs and this is how you're treated. And over the years, I was realizing like, I, I could go about that by possibly doing the same steps that everybody before me did, which was, this is just how it is. Or I could be stubborn, and I am, and say, I might not have the exact path that would be the easiest, but at least at every step of the way I left my mark, I said what I thought was necessary, which could be, be helpful for those that are coming after me or helping people around me at the same time. And so that's kind of like, you know, in the last, I'm not going to give myself so much credit. Like I think I only really found that in the last five years, last five, six years is when I really truly started to feel comfortable with saying, no, this is not right. This is, there's gotta be a different route for this or, um,
Jessica
Mm.
Karma
I hear what you're saying and I decline. And if more of us did that, maybe that would be an avenue of change.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Do you remember the first time that you felt that courage to actually use your voice in a situation?
Karma
Yeah, and it's such a, it's a good story, but it's still such a heartbreak for me because it was like in this moment, I knew exactly what was going on. I was in final callbacks for a show and the show doesn't really have anything to do with race, but as you know, and it was a national tour. So oftentimes when the show is already on Broadway and then they're doing the national tour, You know, they're kind of looking for like, you fit this track, you look like this person. And so often what comes with the way that I outwardly present is a set of stereotypes that come with that. And so in this moment, I was like, I want to sing this song. It's a soprano song. I would love to cover the soprano role, you know, and I, I, they like pulled me out and they were like, Hey,
Jessica
Hmm.
Karma
don't sing this song that you've been singing every time. Do you have like Whitney Houston or do you have something of this and you know, like a little bit more sass. And I could just tell exactly what they were doing and what they were looking at me for. And I froze and I was like, I can make that decision right now and I can put it on and I can probably get this track or I can go in there and I can just do something that's so wildly different and authentic to what is me. And it might be a success story or it might completely flop in my face, but I didn't want to live a double agent life potentially doing that tour because I'm already going to play a character on stage and now I have to live up to this reputation of this caricature that I'm not. All of that was too.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
too all -consuming for me, so I just decided, I said, I was like, no, I don't, I don't, these are the songs that I sing. And they were like, okay, well, come on in. I could see the disappointment in their face, sang my song, and I thought I nailed it, and I think, yeah, technically speaking, I did, but I could just see that they were like, you did not fit the exact mold that we built for you to fit. And therefore you are not useful for us in this production, regardless of how correct you could be, you know, in every other aspect. And I had to take that. I had to say like, okay, I'm so sorry. Like there was nothing, there was nothing I could, I mean, there was something I could do about it, but nothing that I was willing to do about it, you know, there's a lot of games I could be playing that I'm just not. And that was like my first time having the courage to say like, no, I don't actually want to play this fake version of myself just to appease something that you've built without getting to know me as a human or anything about my upbringing, my race, like everything, and to a panel of a bunch of faces that didn't look like.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Right.
Karma
who have, they're not a single person. And I was like, you have such a small opinion…
Jessica
Yeah.
Karma
of what my racial background is. And if you weren't willing to see that we could be so much more, then maybe I didn't want to work in that job. And it's a heartbreak because we can live in the what ifs of like that led to this and this led to that. And I could have met this person and then that person would have been in my corner. But you know, like I'm here for a long time, hopefully, and other jobs will come.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Karma
And other jobs did come and that was five years ago and I'm okay, it's fine. But I think it really helped me gain perspective on like what was important. And now, and after that I went into my book and I was like, no, these songs are not me. These are me playing a game. I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna wear that. If people ask me these very like loaded questions.
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica
Hmm.
Karma
where you can just know what somebody wants you to say. I like journaled about like, how am I gonna answer quick on the spot when I'm frazzled? Here are my plot points, here are things that I'm gonna stick to my script. Here's my script and how to answer these things in a respectful way that pivot the questions away from those digging questions. And I felt so good ever since. And yeah, maybe on paper, there's things that I, milestones I haven't completed yet, but I think it's for the best. I think it has led me to be, you know, creative in my own way and on this path to just use my voice more than be locked into a situation where I was like, oh, I can't, I can't, you know.
Jessica
Yes. Yeah. And how are you going to feel if you take a job like that and you know, like you're saying, you're having to do this double agent life. Is it worth it if you're on the top stage in the world, if you have that inner turmoil going on?
Karma
No, I can't like, I don't want to be Hannah Montana. I just like, I can't do it. Some people might like that. And I feel like there is a type of person that's like, this is a persona that I'm playing.
Jessica
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Karma
But that is already kind of why I do theater its core, right? Like, I love dressing up, I loved being other people, so to doubly do that, it's just exhausting. And yeah, maybe that works for some people, but I can't imagine mentally that would be sustainable for more. Isn't there, I think I read like a fact from a psychologist that said you can only pretend for like three months. Like it was in terms with new friendships, work, or dating. You can only pretend to be something that you're really not for three months before that facade will start to break down. So yeah, if you're doing a long run of a show, I just don't know how I would personally do that. Maybe it works for some people, but.
Jessica
Yeah. Well, the other part of it is that you're not then actually living life and taking that into your art and into your characters and into the theater performances because your life is also theater.
Karma
Yeah. It's all encompassing. Yeah.
Jessica
and working with just a different character. Yeah. Can you identify what gave you that courage to finally use your voice? Like where was the turning point and how can we maybe give something that might encourage somebody?
Karma
It's my dad, it was my dad. I called him the day before my call back and I was like, I know what they want. I told him, I was like, I feel like this is gonna happen. And I feel like I know what they want. And he just told me in that moment, he was like, you're gonna come up with that for the rest of your life. And I know that you've already come up against that. And so you just have to decide. Do you want to change the narrative and let people know karma? Because you are a unique person. Or do you want to be like everybody else? Do you want to just be a new carbon copy of somebody that did trailblaze? And I was like, yeah, you're right. I don't want to.
I didn't want to follow in the footsteps of somebody that might have just had my same skin tone and nothing else about my essence. I would, I wanted to leave my mark in the room, whether that was for the good or the bad, but still know that me as karma was there. And his words just, I think about that every single time I audition now. Like every, like most, everything that I do, like I think. Do I want to play it safe or do I want to be karma? And yeah, I'm gonna be karma in a respectful way, in a polite way and still be a good time, but I'd rather take the risk. Because it might pay off.
Jessica
Yeah, and also for all the opportunities that that trajectory might have let you down, you know, or might have offered you, then you don't, the what if game is so complicated, right? Because that's how our brain naturally will spiral. But if you went down that trajectory, who knows what negative things would have continued happening, you know? Maybe there would have been some fantastic things, but also the negative things that are with it with going against your intuition and who you really are.
Karma
And, you know, we can live in the what ifs of that, but if we're going by string theory, there's this path and this path and this, like everything is up for 25 forks in the road. So all of the things that were good that happened because I didn't do that job are also still fruitful now or potentially leading to like the climax, the best thing that could ever happen to me because I stayed, which is also just like a great way to think about a door closing. It could, no, no, go.
Jessica
Yeah, and that makes me think...that's why it's so important to really define what success means to you because is success hitting a certain achievement or a success fulfillment? Is it integrity? Is it joy? Is it connection? There are many different ways that we can identify what success is and we get to define those things. And sometimes when you're in the industry or you have training programs and you grow up in a certain way, that can be very
Karma
Yeah.
Jessica
narrow and feel very limited and it's up to us to redefine that and rediscover it for ourselves.
Karma
Yeah, so interesting about that is that I think like, I'm coming out of feeling this way, because I've done some work. But you know, that phrase of like, we can't let other people's success be our, you know, think that it means that we're failing. Just because somebody else. Somebody else's path may have done this and ours is doing the steady climb. It doesn't mean that we're failing it just means that we have We're going about the mountain climb in a different way that was so hard for me to receive as a POC in the industry because it felt like by saying that we were not acknowledging that I somebody that didn't look like me was starting here and that my starting point was here. And so saying somebody who grew up in an affluent neighborhood, who had all of the resources to do these things, who looks like everybody that's ever done Broadway ever, was so hard working and got there. And I'm not saying any of these people aren't hard working. Of course, this is a...
This is an industry where every single person works insanely hard to be able to do singing, dancing, acting. We know that as a baseline, but to negate that your facility is automatically accepted in a different way is, was so, it was like anger to me because I was just thinking about all of the times that I would say, I'd like to be seen for this role or I would like to go in for this and they're like, well, that track is not open. Well, I kind of go in for that track. Well, that's not the track that looks like you, but that's my skill set. Well, then I guess the show's not for you. And like, that's infuriating. And the ratio of some of these shows would be, you know, two people that look like me who have the impossible task of being a dancer that's strong enough to...
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
seven roles in the show while maybe swinging it at the same time. And then, you know, there's nine other people that don't look like me who are like, I just do the show and I'm on my seventh show this year. And I was like, I know that I'm not supposed to let other success make me angry, but there is something fundamentally wrong with the -
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
with the building blocks of the structure of this that we are not speaking of. Because why is why? Why is that how we built these shows?
Jessica
Yes.
Karma
And I'm still asking myself why. It's because I'm not at the top. I'm not building the shows yet. But I'm keeping a mental track and being like, we gotta change some things up. Because this isn't how we're going to cultivate new artists or hear from minority groups. It just feels like gatekeeping.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
from the top down. I mean, it is.
Jessica
It is, yeah, 100%. And that's, you're looking at it first there's as a performer where you're coming in and there are already limited spots. And like you're saying, just the accessibility and the opportunities out there were not even remotely equal. And then you have the added layers of the creative teams and the production as a whole and...
Karma
Yeah.
Jessica
all of those people in charge of making these decisions. And that's even less diverse, obviously, because that can be hidden. So there's, there is more opportunity for performative work of who you're putting on a stage because that's what people are seeing. But then you're also not addressing everything behind the scenes.
Karma
Yeah. And the behind the scenes, I think it's like a, if you know, you know, because only us that are, get to work with people in that way, see how there's so much lack of diversity. And that's just shocking to me. In 2024 that were, and even more so than, than the theater world, I was just shocked to cross over in the TV and film and see like how broader it is there and still like hair department, makeup department, I've been on set and there's not a single person that knows how to do my hair. And I'm at top.
Jessica
Hmm.
Karma
top tier, like this should be, you know, this is the highest level if we're talking about commercial establishments. And to have lack of knowledge about hair and makeup and lighting like that, I'm like, this is an industry that has been around for literally ages.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
And I can, and I'm in Harlem now, I can walk anywhere. I can throw a stone and there will be somebody that not only knows how to do my hair and makeup, but knows how to do your hair and makeup, this man's hair and makeup, however you identify, any race, any gender. And so it's like, why are we not bringing all of these people in that have all of this wealth of knowledge and we're limiting it? And then that's gonna reflect on you putting me in your makeup chair where I'm...
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
trusting you to make me feel my best so that I perform my best and then I'm left feeling like I'm a nuisance. You're othering me. You are making me feel like I'm a problem and then I don't want to speak up because I'm the only one that looks like me. So if I do, then are you going to like come up with this label about me in your head? You know, it just there's so many things that are.
privileges that, that others don't see and that needed to be changed, that need to be changed at the root. That's really where I think like my goals are is that I'm like, we need to shed light on these because how can we change them if we're not talking about them?
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
Yeah, I just don't, I don't think it's fair to say that we're all starting from here. And it is a little, it's a little like naive to have that opinion. And I, and I know that it still exists. And I know that that's a hard bubble burst for a lot of people. I mean, it was a hard bubble burst for me and I'm on the receiving end of it. It still was earth shattering to be like, what? This is wild. Why are you talking to me that way?
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Right.
Jessica
How do you want to shed a light on it? You want to have conversations, of course, and how can we encourage other people to also use their voice? I really love when you said that you journaled about this, about having a go -to statement to have about what you need to say and how you need to advocate for yourself and therefore those around you. So could you speak a little bit to that?
Karma
Yeah, I mean, I think calling things out when you see them, the injustices around, because I think...
Karma
These things aren't going to change if just someone like me says something because I only hold so much power as a minority in multiple categories. So the people that need to, it's, I mean, it's real, it's like allyship. It's how do you, how do you show up for the others that if it's not affecting you. And I think that comes in multiple ways. I think it's calling out injustices around you.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
checking in with your cast members and being like, do you feel safe? Are we making you feel safe? Is production making you feel safe? Are you feeling taken care of and seen? And if not, how can I stand with you? How can I go with you to speak to somebody or how can I speak to somebody on your behalf? Because I think that sometimes other people's voices are a bit more powerful when they don't have the direct skin of the game. I also think something minor that one of my, like my very best friend from home, she lives here now, she's in the industry as well. And she's a white woman and she told me something that I think about all the time is that.
The more that she puts herself into the correct rooms, the more the higher ups are going to get the message loud and clear that they should not be inappropriately calling people in for shows. I don't know if I explained that correctly, but she was using the example of...if she's identifying as white, she's not going to go into a room for in the heights and cosplay is another race. And it seems so simple when you say it like that. Yet that is, it happens all the time. And that is that that is where you can control your allyship because you can't say that you want.
Jessica
happens all the time.
Karma
to make change and you're really excited and you care about these people and then go and flip the switch and just do things to benefit you. But if we are in a community where they're doing the honor system, they're hoping that if you showed up for this or they called you in and you accepted, that you were being truthful. So that's a small way to help the larger thing because if… they're looking to bring 50 people in and they realize that 45 of these 50 people said no to the appointment because they actually weren't right for the show, casting would have no choice but to dig a little deeper and to go and authentically find these people that they need to tell these stories accurately. But if they don't have to do that, I don't know why they would.
If they had 600 people show up for their call, all of which are not really right for the show, but are willing to dye their hair, why would they go and search?
Jessica
Yeah. Right.
Karma
So that's like another smaller way to control something is...think about the rooms that you should be in, think about the way that you should accurately be representing yourself in regards to the people that don't have as much of a voice, the community and theater. Because there's, it's not just my ethnic group. Like there's so many of us that are just screaming to be seen.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
as more than, well you have these two musicals, here you go. And sometimes it's just silly too, because I'm like, why do you want to be in that musical? Why? Why, why? I wanna share, I wanna share everything. We should be sharing everything, but it's like, why?
Jessica
Have you had moments where your joy or your passion or your spark for what you love to do as a performer has been dimmed either because of these experiences and revelations or something else?
Karma
Ooh, that's a really good question. Yeah, there has been moments, I'm trying to think, I mean, generally, yes, but there was a moment this last year, I was doing a show and I was buzzing. I was like, this is for me, one of the best shows. I can't believe I get to do this show. This show was the first show I've gotten to do in a while that it did not center around race. The story didn't pertain to it. It was just a human story. There was other aspects of it that were specific, but like my track, everything that I was doing was just about an interesting human. And I was beyond thrilled. I was like, I just get to exist. And I don't.
My skin is not involved. And that was so refreshing. Until like a week in, there was like a moment where I realized, and I don't have proof, but you just feel it, that I was there for the way that I looked as a diversity hire. And yeah, I'm not discrediting my talent, but there's just like this feeling that you know that. It's hard unless you've been in that situation, but I just knew. I just knew. It just dimmed my experience because...
I, the way that the eyes were on me the whole time and the way that it was starting to be tracked, the way that the wig department spoke to me and one other person that looked like me about we can't have our wigs looking too similar because how will we tell you guys apart on stage? I was like, this is...This is not it. This is not it. What do you mean, how are you gonna tell us apart on stage? How are you gonna tell all these other 18 people apart on stage? It was like in those moments that I was like, I'm questioning if I'm supposed to be here because you saw a sparkle in me and said, she's cool. I'd love to work with her. Or if when deciding you thought,
This is our cast that we want, but we should add something extra. Who of these two do you like? And I will never know if that's how it was cast, but that was the overwhelming feeling I got. It never felt like I was there because...They honored my. talent and charm as a performer. It just felt like it was, we did a good thing, look at us. And you know, that's just not a good feeling. Especially when I was like, finally, it's not even in the script. Like we should just be able to exist, but there's just an underlying, it's like a dark.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Karma
like fog that you just kind of feel it in the air and yeah, and that's happened a few times in different scenarios projects that I've done where I've just kind of looked around and been like, oh I see what's going on here. Okay. you know, in that moment I didn't have the courage and I didn't have the voice to say anything because…That's another hard one. It's a version of a microaggression and it's really hard to pinpoint that because there's not evidence that you can bring to somebody. But that like gut feeling doesn't go away. That's just icky.
Jessica
It's its own unique kind of devastation and pain because you don't have, like you're saying, that evidence. So it's just a feeling and you don't have validation necessarily. Not that you need it to know that feeling and to know that's the truth of what's happening, but you don't have something in front of you to say and present and say, look, this is what happened. It's a feeling.
Karma
Yeah. And I know that it's true because I've just, I've chatted with so many of my friends that have had similar feelings. And I'm like, we are all collectively describing the same exact thing. And so that's evidence to me enough. It's not just a made up thing in my head, but you know, it is, like you said, it's like another kind of heartbreak. And...
Jessica
Yeah.
Karma
Yeah, like the only thing you can do in those situations is hopefully prove somebody wrong. Do exceptionally. I don't think the minority groups are really at a point where we cannot always be exceptional. Or we're just forced to. And I obviously like that I hold myself high. I want to be exceptional all the time. I want to put my best foot forward. But, you know, I also know that I speak for an entire collective. I'm representing not just myself in a lot of moments. And that's heavy to have that and that was a moment where I knew I was like I'm here for a reason and I have to be grateful to be here because I could make this person that's hired me have a snap decision about everybody that comes after me that looks like me, which is wild, but it is true.
Jessica
That's a really heavy weight on your shoulders.
Karma
Yeah, and I don't think that people often think that is going on. No, we know, but we just know, we just know as, you know, observant humans that it is. You know, everyone has been around somebody who's heard some sort of like off -color joke and you're like, well, where did that stem from? And that's our responsibility. Unfortunately, I'd like to change the narrative. And I think there will be a future in that exact scenario if that comes up again, where I would find a better way to do it other than just leading by example. But sometimes my mental health and being away from home, that is the best way I could do it when, when you're just outnumbered.
Jessica
As artists, we are naturally hard on ourselves and then you're adding all these layers. How do you support your mental health in these situations, both when you're in it and in the aftermath and everything like that?
Karma
I have a very good support system. My partner and my friends, like we have like, Hey, are you mentally ready for me to vent? Can I just at you and let me get it off my chest. And we do so and we hold space for each other. And I'm really very, very happy about that. But then there's other times where I'm just like, I have to go and do my own thing. I have to do something that's not theater, that's still artistic. That's just my outlet personally. And I think when I can start doing other artistic things that bring me joy, then I can kind of like sift my thoughts while zoning out and doing one of those other things. And then I can get back on track and be like, okay.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
We're gonna shift our mindset. We're gonna pivot. We're gonna do it like this now. Journaling. I mean, I said I do makeup, so it's really just a personal thing. I will come up with a prompt and I will paint my own face for hours. I can paint for like four hours zoning out littlest brush strokes and... I will be so mentally clear afterwards. Such a silly therapeutic thing, but I love it. And it feels really good.
Jessica
It's so important to find those things that allow you to get into some kind of flow that feels therapeutic for yourself. And when you take something that once felt therapeutic, like our passions as dancers and actors and everything, and then you put all of the bullshit on top of it and the capitalism and the industry and the racism and everything that is piled on over and over and over again.
Karma
Yeah.
Jessica
It's like you have to do extra work to dig and just get to the root of that heart and the passion again. And for some people it's worth it and some people it's not worth it. And so to find joy and hobbies or maybe take that passion that you were trying to make your profession and keep it to yourself as a hobby, I think is so important to be able to identify and to have some place to escape to.
Karma
Yeah. Dance too, I mean, I love, I'm a dancer first, but there, the dance class vibe, sometimes it's just not it. Sometimes it's like, you're a dancer, right? Yes. And I'm like, you know, like, like it's just sometimes I'm like, I would like to wear the baggiest clothes and just vibe in the back because I just need the therapy of this sad girl song to dance to and let loose. And I don't get that because somebody wants to put camera in my face.
Jessica
Yeah, well, I say was, I don't know.
Karma
And I didn't wear a red lip and then I felt made to feel weird that I didn't come prepared to like be in a music video when I just wanted to like spin on the ground. So I'm confused sometimes where that lies even just this day and age. So I'm like, okay, big pivot. Then I go out dancing. Then I'm gonna go and find the strangest rave in a warehouse where probably no one does musical theater and I can dance in my own world for five hours straight and not one person asked me about my resume. And I'm like, ugh, that's awesome. That is like the best feeling in the world. And like people just dancing with full abandon. Like no one's putting on a show, no one's.
That's where like real art is made and those kinds of spaces where no one's like questioning themselves and you're just seeing all these different humans interact and move and feel the same heartbeat. I'm like, that is, that's a different kind of release. And I love dance classes. I want to still go to a dance class, but I don't want a dance class to make me cry. And I'm a sensitive girl. I am a sensitive girly. So like.
Jessica
Yeah. Hmm.
Karma
The second that I even feel that judgmental thing, I'm like, oh, I'm out. I'm actually, I'm so out. I could be the type of person that goes through it, but I'm not. I'm like, oh, no, stop, stop, not for me.
Jessica
I'm out, I'm 100%. The dance class environment has come up so many times on this podcast because yeah, it's really a different, it's a whole different atmosphere. And there are so many positives, I think of the, and I don't think I've voiced this, but I really do see so many positives of this new.
Karma
I'm not surprised.
Jessica
worlds we're living in with the cameras and the music video classes and everything because it's giving people footage, it's giving choreographers more of a voice and a way to put their work forward, it's giving dancers the ability to have more things for their real and I think so much of that is so beautiful and important and beneficial. And for somebody like me who I need a little more like you're saying, I wanna kinda just be in my own world. I have a complicated relationship with dance. And if I'm going to re -enter the space, I really need to feel fully safe. And I don't always feel like that in those environments because of this change where it's more of a performance rather than what I grew back in my day when we were going to class to like fail and flop. And of course, so many wonderful teachers. I really don't mean to be like,
Karma
Yeah.
Jessica
saying anything negative about teachers that do have it. I just think there is a total shift of energy when that's the vibe. And, you know, maybe I need to go and try that out and see that maybe it's not as bad as I think it's going to be or whatever it is. But I do want to seek out more opportunities to have that more introspective discovery with my movement and with a given class. So I hear you. It's a strange shift.
Karma
It is. And yeah, I mean, like there's so many classes I and teachers, just everything is so, everything is so good and I want to support everything. But you're right. It's like growing up when I would go to my dance studio, it was so many things for me. It was completely my safe space. Like a hundred percent like my safest. I was myself completely, I couldn't wait to get out of school because all I wanted to do was go see my dance friends, go work my desk job at my dance studio, go and like, I just wanted to be there. I wanted to fail and get notes. Though I loved that. I loved that feeling of being like, someone cares that I'm failing so that they can help me grow.
Jessica
Yeah, beautiful.
Karma
And I just missed that like idea of bringing each other up. And then it seemed like when I would dance with my friends, I'd be like, you did a triple. Last week you could only do a double. And look at you like we're screaming for each other, just screaming for each other. And I just don't feel that has happened in the last few years, but I used to feel that in some of these New York classes, you know? Like I used to feel like I would start to like teachers would start to remember me and been like, okay, you picked up on that combo better. Or like, you're looking really good. Like, okay, see you were on your leg this week. Like, well done. Like you need that kind of thing. And there's so many humans. So I know it's an impossible task to get that, but yeah, there's just something about like the community aspect of it that is not firing on all cylinders when we introduce the social media into it. Because I mean, at its core, social media is really like, how would I like the world to perceive me when I can control it? Not, how does the world perceive me if they were just watching me in a house like Big Brother? It's just not the same. And so when we're introducing that camera and...
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
thing, of course, like I don't want to necessarily be filmed like white rooming in the back where I've forgotten the combo and I've not brushed my hair. Like, of course, maybe I don't want to like be filmed that way when my social media would like lead you to believe I might be a model. Like, I get that. I get it, you know? But that's just, yeah, it is like a step that we might have to.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
Go, I'll go with you. Yeah, I'll go to a dance class. I'll get over my fear. I'm like, I'm too, I can't. You know, it is good, it's good. We should do it. It's scary.
Jessica
I'll go with you.
Jessica
I know, it's so scary. And it's so crazy to me that it's scary, but I'm terrified. I've said on a past episode that in the past five years, I think I've been to three dance classes, or maybe five or something like that. But what helped me get reintroduced was going to a beginner ballet class at Steps. And the only reason it was Steps is because...
Karma
Mmm.
Jessica
I lived nearby and I could not guarantee that if I had to take a subway somewhere that I would actually get off the subway. I was like, I am going to go walk there and it's nice out and I'm going to go. And it was so incredible. And it was in the basement in step. So it wasn't that room where you're on display. And I just felt like I could be a little mouse in the basement of steps, like in my own little world. And I wore what I wanted and I had my hair.
Karma
Yeah.
Karma
Oh, cool. Yeah.
Jessica
half up half down with my little chopped Bob at the time. And that felt really good. And makes me think a couple things. Okay, so now I'm getting excited. I feel like we need a dance class support group. And we can kind of just be like, okay, anyone who has this fear, we're all going to go and take this thing together. And we can scope out the teachers that we feel offer the most like, okay, everybody, are we ready to dance? Are we ready to do this thing? And the
Karma
Yeah. Yes! haha
Jessica
other thing I thought about, and we can do this when we go together is like, what if we try to be not necessarily teachers, but like support systems for each other? Like what if there's a buddy system when you go to class, and so you can give feedback in real time to that person, right? And you can be in separate groups. So you can watch each other and and offer that. Yeah, because it's, it's so weird when you grow up and
Karma
Yeah. Oh, that'd be cool. Yeah. That would be so cool. I love that.
Jessica
everything is so structured and you have the same teachers and classes day after day, year after year. And then all of a sudden you're just like in the world showing up and trying to connect and all that. So, okay, I feel like kind of lit up. Do you see? I'm like, whoo, whoo, a little movement in my body.
Karma
Yeah, you're just on your own. Yeah, no, it's so good. It's so, I think that would change. That's like a good, that's bringing it back. That's like what I mean by like one more in our own backyard. That's how we can start, you know, making a bigger change. Because like you said, there's probably so many people that have, I know I've heard more than I can count people describing these things and being like, I go to a class and I don't know a single person anymore. And I'm like, well, where are we if we're all saying this? I mean, I know like life and it's busy and we're older now, but it's still.
Jessica
Me too. Mm -hmm. Mm hmm. Well, I did have an idea. I'll say this now because this episode isn't going to air until the fall and I'm thinking about this for August. So I feel safe to say it, but I'm thinking that I want to do a story project intensive and have like one full day and anyone who wants to come just signs up when we have the room for the whole day. You can like come in and come out and do what you want and have people like you or my other guests lead classes that feel good in a safe environment.
Karma
Ooh. That would be so fun! That would be so fun! Yeah, we should do that!
Jessica
Yeah, should we do it? Okay, cool. I've been thinking about it a lot. So I think that, yeah, I mean, okay, so I'll put that on the list. I'll put that on the to -do list, you know? So I wanna ask you, what is a performance experience, whether it's TV, film or theater or whatever, that has particularly been,
Karma
Thank you.
Jessica
that has been particularly beautiful or fulfilling for you or sparkly or fireworksy.
Karma
Okay, well, can I say two? They're just like, well, one moment, this is actually hilarious. Okay, so one moment in my career that has been just absolutely amazing was I got this self tape and I read the description and I look young. We can see it. I look, I don't know.
Jessica
As many as you want. You can say 50.
Karma
Max 20 on camera, I have a high pitched voice. Like people don't perceive me as being very old. I get often in for like Gen Z coffee barista girl, you know, like gamer girl. And I love that for me. It's fun. I love those kinds of things, but I'm not really playing any, I mean, I'm not self taping for anything very substantial in terms of like, she's the serious lawyer that's passed the bar and she's doing these things. Like it's just not, it's just not how I'm perceived and I'm totally fine with that. I'm a comedy queen. I like this kind of stuff. Anyway, I get this self tape and it's a quick turnover. It was like 2 p .m. Can you get it in tomorrow by 9 a .m.? And I'm not getting off of work until seven. And I'm like, okay, you know, I look at the description. The description is for someone that is supposed to be like an investigative journalist and she's 35 and she's a mom.
And I'm like...Okay, like, I don't know, I feel like this may be not for me. I just, I made a snap judgment. I was like, I don't know. Maybe, maybe I, with the right styling, I could read as that. I'll lower my voice. I don't know. So my partner's like, you should do it. You should do it. And so I do the tape. All right, look at the sides and then it's wordy. It's like just ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I have to look up like 19 words because I don't even know how to pronounce them because that's like legal jargon. And I'm like the whole time I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I, I don't, I think this is an impossible task, right? Like I'm just laughing myself and he goes, no, I just like have this feeling like you need to do this tape, you need to do this tape. And I was like, okay. He was like, what if we teleprompter? Shh, the secret trick.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Karma
Like we're going to teleprompter it. You're not going to have to memorize it. He was like, just go over it. Know generally what you mean with these words and then the order of them, you'll just read off the screen. And I'm like, yeah, okay. So I'm going to do this. And I end up actually memorizing it more than I think. And I'm feeling very comfortable. And suddenly I'm like super in it and I'm thinking, okay, this is an investigative journalist that lives in Brooklyn is the description, but she's not on the clock. So I'm like, I don't even know what I would wear for this. I just put like my hair in a bun and put like this little bandana on and have a pair of overalls. It's very important to the story that that is what I was wearing, just like tank top and overalls. So I do the tape and two days later I get a booking. So I've booked it. And I'm like, that's actually a while because I was about to not do this tape at all. And they tell me it's like for a cool project.
And I'm like, okay, this is, this is crazy. So a week later I go to my fitting and they have all of the pictures pinned up of what the character looked like in their head. And the character in their head looked exactly how I was describing this character that I wasn't. Business suit, she's like, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, you know, it's exactly that. And the...wardrobe team is like, do you have the overalls that you wore? Can you show us again how you had your hair? They loved your tape so much that they thought, oh, of course, that is how a Brooklyn off -duty mom would dress. And in that moment, I was like, that is, oh my God, can I tell everybody? Like, that is the crack the code. Like, that is the pinnacle story. Like, I counted myself out.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
I said, this isn't for me. And instead I said, I'll just do it how I would do it and it might work. And it worked. And they were like, we actually were so wrong and you were so right. Like that is how she would be. And they did a big pivot and like basically replicated my outfit via like pulling. Okay. Don't get too excited. Funny enough.
Jessica
I actually have tears in my eyes.
Karma
Then none of my scenes made the episode. So it's fine, it's fine. But I'm still so grateful. And like, it was the coolest, just wow. Oh my God, like everything that was me was being honored, was being celebrated, was being like, yes, you are our answer. And I felt so good coming off of, you know, like a few months of feeling like, I'm only here because of this. And finally, I was in a room where I was like, I'm here because like, you wanted me to be here. Like everything that I said was was an astounding yes. And it felt so cool. And then it's changed my entire perspective for self tapes now. Like I will read the script and I will read the character description. And I think of them slightly as a suggestion now. Because
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
things can shift, characters can change based on the essence that you bring. No one is going to read it in the same way. No one's eyes move the same way as yours do, as theirs do, as yours do. Like everything is so just specific to you as a human. And it's just such a good reminder that something as so tiny as like, hey, we really liked those earrings. It made...made us think of the character in a different way or just the essence that you bring. And now I'm the like, am I doing this right feeling is not there because it suddenly doesn't, it doesn't matter because I won't ever know what the right is because they don't even know what the right is. So like it's an, I'm not setting myself up for this impossible task now.
I'm like, this is my version of right, which is 100 % right, because there's no wrong way to do what my right is. So do me the best I can do me, and they will either love it or say like, she was great, but we actually just think this is better for this fit. And that's okay. But that is, it's easier said than done.
Jessica
Yeah.
Karma
And I know it doesn't translate exactly with theater because sometimes at the end of the day, there was a right way. You know, sometimes at the end of the day, there really just was a right and wrong answer. But at least in TV and film, right now, it's like a bit of fresh air to be like, wow, that is just a game changer. And then, oh, my second best experience was this last summer. I got to do a production of Legally Blonde. And it's just like my favorite show. And it came out the same time the Barbie movie came out. So it was like pink overload. And I swear I like. The feminist in me could not stop crying. I was just like, girly, girly, girly, girly, girly, we are so powerful. Pink is awesome. Like everything was like raining down sparkles in pink and girls were on top and it was like run by women. It felt like this incredible shift that I've never experienced because.
I've just never been around in theater that many powerful women and powerful female leads all in one space. When? When do we get to do that? So many times these shows are just not, that's just not how they're built. And I was like, this is, this is incredible. This is an incredible like summer to remember of just like a power switch in the world and getting to do a show that coincided with that, like, counting my lucky stars, being like, I have been dying to do this show since I watched MTV. Like, I have loved this show since then. I could not wait, put me in any role. Like, I was over the moon every single day. I just was like, my face hurts. I'm smiling so much. I've never had so much fun, like, laughing, telling a -
Jessica
Yep. Yep.
Karma
a good story that means something, but also in a way that I know how to reach an audience, which is like dancing and smiling and being fun. Like it was like telling a story that's important, but in my way, not dipping into the, the, the super dark trauma of things being like, I want to change the world in a positive sparkly way because I want to be sunshine. I want to like smile and be happy and that show just feels like it wrapped that up for me and a big people. And I was like, can we do it for longer? I don't want to stop doing this show, please. Somebody buy me that revive Legally Blonde t -shirt because I think we're due.
Jessica
We're so do that is such a good show. It is such a good show. That's an incredible, that's such an amazing reminder that there's room for all different kinds of art.
Karma
It's so good.
Jessica
And as artists, we get to choose how we're going to tell the message and express ourselves and make a change in the world. And you can do it through Legally Blonde. It doesn't, like you're saying, have to be the deepest, darkest story in order to make a change. You get to decide. You're lucky if you get to decide.
Karma
Yeah. And it, you know, we know the discourse about sometimes these bubbly, sugary shows, they don't get sometimes taken as seriously as a serious play. And I'm not saying I don't want to do a serious play. Like, there is room to grow in all aspects. But if you are taking...If you are taking the text seriously and doing a good job, somebody is going to walk away changed. Somebody is going to walk away and see the message. Don't judge a book by its cover and take women seriously and do all of these things. And it's also in an artistic way. Dance tells stories. Singing tells stories. The Barbie movie did exceptionally well. Like, we still left away going, oh my gosh, wow, I want to, I want to be a part of that, or I feel something different, or I see this person as a different type of human now.
Jessica
Yeah. So, moving forward, what are some things that really excite you about what you can do with your career and what creative projects you can be a part of, whether they actually exist and it's like a goal that you're setting for yourself or something that you're kind of imagining or creating in your own mind.
Karma
Hmm. You know, it's actually kind of a funny question because this like season, I made it my like manifesting goal to release all future. So I decided instead of doing what I've done for years was being like, I'm gonna be this by this thing, this by this age, by this month.
Jessica
Mm.
Karma
this will have happened. And obviously, like nothing is in my control. So none of those came true ever. I've never hit a single one for the last 15 years. So I decided this year to stop doing that and just release it all and say, I don't know where I'll be in two months. And I'm so okay with that. And I don't know where this door will lead. But if the project and the people,
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
and the pay feel good, then I'm open to it. And just letting that guide me and trusting that if I'm being me and authentically showing up, the right doors are gonna open, the right people are going to be attracted to me, and that's eventually just going to lead me on the path of overall fulfillment. And yeah, I wanna play chess with my career, and I have sneaky shows that I have my eyes on.
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Karma
Of course I'm going like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Like, cause you know, I'm not gonna sit in my room and be like, I'll just manifest it and I'll be there. Like I'm gonna play chess a little bit, but yeah, I really am just like releasing it to the universe and showing up the best I can be and using my voice at each stage and hoping that really just propels me into.
Jessica
Mm -hmm.
Karma
the right opportunities in the right rooms. Hopefully we can circle back. We'll see if it works. It seems like it's working. It seems like it's working so far. It seems like it's, it's doing good. I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm meeting and working with people that have a mutual respect this year and are on the same wavelength. And that feels good to just see eye to eye with artists of
Jessica
We definitely will circle back.
Karma
all different aspects and ages and backgrounds and being like, wow, finally. It feels like I found people that I'm like, cool. Like, we are right here. So you can't go wrong, I guess.
Jessica
And then you become open to more than you even thought was possible or more than you even thought you were capable of because I've always felt like, and I've also touched upon this on the podcast before, but like I have a hard time labeling myself. Like, am I a dancer? Am I an actor? Am I a pod, whatever it is. And the heart of it for me is I want to work with people on projects that mean something to me and to the potentially the world and who I connect with. And that's kind of it. And if it's in theater, it's in theater. If it's in TV, it's in TV. If it's a writing piece, it's whatever it is. It's less about the medium and more about having a connection, seeing what possibilities open up when you kind of hold onto that route rather than, oh, I have this goal that I want to hit this particular milestone at this particular time, whatever it is. So I think that that is really a beautiful outlook. And I'm so happy that you're already seeing the benefits and the beauty of having that mindset. And I would also imagine that that's way healthier for your brain and your heart.
Karma
Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. I just, I can't, there was just so many times where I just circle back to shows where I'm like, man, if I had taken that contract. Whoa, like, whoa, I would have been in a dark place. And also I think back to all the contracts that I did take in my very formative years, like entering the theater world in New York where I was, you know, collectively working in a non -union dinner theater for $200 a week before taxes. I lived in a, I lived, this theater is closed now, so I feel comfortable saying it.
We came home to our housing in this theater and there was caution tape on the, they wouldn't let us in. And I was like, so I live right there. And the guy was like, you can't go in there. And I was like, well, what happened? And he was like, oh, well, the unit below you, they were making meth. So it was about to explode. I was like living above and we told the theater and they kind of were like, well, you can go stay in the couch of the other cast house, not a hotel, not nothing. And I'm like, I should have, but I was also 19, should have scoped this theater out more before, been like, something feels wrong, you know, and used my gut, but all of my intuition at that time was just grateful to have a job, grateful to be there and not questioning a single thing. And we are grateful that, you know, whoever was on my side and that nothing bad happened, but I am glad to not be in that kind of mindset anymore and just searching for, you know, the top three.
Jessica
Right. Mm -hmm.
Karma
things or I guess if there's three things we want to have two of the three, right? We want to have good people, a good environment and good pay. But if we can just get two of those, then I'm happy. And if it's really the non -starter for me is like good people. Like you can pay me all you want and it can be a cool project. But if I don't have good people, then I can't. I can't because it's my well -being, it's my mental health, it's my physical health. It's...
Jessica
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Karma
everything, like I can't be around that unsafe feeling or anything because like, why do we, why do we do this then? Like if I wanted to not like my job, I would like work at Chase Bank. No offense to anybody who works at Chase Bank, but like I, I want to like wear a boa on stage. So like I shouldn't be unhappy. It should be like the best thing I've ever done ever, at least.
Jessica
Right…the baseline should be your emotional and physical safety. And yeah, yeah. And that does come hand in hand with pay and who you work with and what the show is. So it is hard to separate it all because it is all connected, but at the very least safety, true safety, which is not always a given as you learned from.
Karma
for everyone and everyone should fight for that. Yeah.
Jessica
that experience and other experiences. That is a crazy story.
Karma
And I'm sure that you could make us like a secular podcast of just, you know, wasn't there like a, oh, they got rid of it. It was like gig and tell that used to be on like audition update. And you could type in your experience working at theaters and, and to say like, oh, this was not good. This happened. And they don't have that anymore. And I'm like, somebody start that again. Because I wonder why. Like so nice to start that again because yeah, like if no one's, no one's saying anything, I can't even imagine what could potentially be still going on right now.
Jessica
I wonder why they got rid of it. Hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, that's honestly the heart of this. And we're not necessarily always using names and calling people out and places out because, you know, that's the tricky thing. People need jobs and people are afraid to get written off or to get blacklisted or whatever it is. And I completely understand that. But like we were talking about before we hit record, We're both the kind of people who are going to look at something and question it and then try to do something about it. And there was a time in life that I didn't do that, like you were saying too. And then there was a flip and I became that or I'm trying to become that. It's not perfect. There's still so many ways that I can improve and situations more recently that I didn't use my voice in the exact way that I would have wanted to and I'm still learning and growing but ultimately between something like you coming on here and telling your experience and then having other people go, oh wait, yeah, that is actually really messed up that we're having that experience. I didn't think about that or I did think about that and wow, she's so courageous for using her voice in that way in those experiences and now sharing it with us all. So I am just very appreciative for all that you are and all that you do and how you use your voice and the artist and the human that you are in this world. And I feel very grateful that we just met one and a half hours ago and that we're gonna go take a class together. And I think there's a lot of room for a lot of amazing things to happen together. So I'm grateful.
Karma
Thank you. Hahaha. I love it. Oh, I love, thank you so much for having me. I mean, I'm like such a big fan of all of your guests. I was like listening to every, you've been my train podcast ever since we met up. So I was like, oh, now I have a new podcast because I was running out of, you know, just, I mean, running out of podcasts. That was kind of dramatic. I'm not running out of podcasts, but you are becoming my.
Jessica
Oh good!
Jessica
That makes me so happy! There are no podcasts.
Karma
There were no podcasts ever. I don't know why I said that. But you've become my train one. And then it was just like fun when it was kept popping up guests and I would text them afterwards and be like, oh my God, Simi. I was like, Ramita, what's going on? Just listening to your episode. Like just so fun. So I'm very grateful and happy to be in good company of a bunch of like -minded women. And it's awesome.
Jessica
I'm so happy to hear that. Thank you so much for saying that. It's been such a gift to be able to connect with everybody and everyone has been so generous and vulnerable and that is not a given and it's just so appreciated and I know that it impacts a lot of people who listen. And I've always said like, even if one person is impacted by one conversation, that said, I will think that it was worth it. So.
Karma
Yeah.
Jessica
using our voices as artists and especially when you have a history of dance where you're like very silenced and that's how you're raised is just like listen and do what you're told and everything is so empowering for us sitting here speaking and I hope that it can be empowering for people listening as well.
Karma
Yes, absolutely. That's a perfect takeaway of it.
Jessica
Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a beautiful day and I will let you know the next time I'm going to be in the city and we can meet up and get coffee or tea or whatever you is your drink of choice. And then we can take a class.
Karma
You as well. Okay, I love it. Thank you so much. It was so good talking to you.
Jessica
Okay, you too. Okay, have a good day. Bye.
Karma
Bye.