Sustainable Dance Careers with Dinah Hampson
SHOW NOTES
In today’s episode, Dinah Hampson discusses:
The importance of providing performers with the tools and resources to have sustainable career
Challenging the narrative that dancers must suffer and have short careers
Her online platform, Pivot Dancer, which offers resources and classes to help performers take care of their bodies and prevent injuries
The need for empowerment and mental performance skills for dancers
Abuse and unsafe practices in dance and the importance of creating a supportive community
Injury prevention, the importance of sleep, and the need to normalize strength training in dance
Dinah Hampson is a Physiotherapist who is passionate about enjoying life and using her knowledge to promote high performance in others. Dinah holds many certifications including the Sport Physio Diploma and International Sports Physiotherapist qualification, the Diploma of Manual & Manipulative Therapy and Pelvic Health Physiotherapy.
Dinah is the Founder of Pivot Sport Medicine, a multidisciplinary clinic in Toronto, Canada and Pivot Dancer, a virtual dance injury prevention platform with worldwide membership. Dinah has been on the Canadian medical team for over 15 multisport games, including the Olympics, Youth Olympics, Paralympic, Pan American, World University and Commonwealth Games.
Dinah trained in classical ballet, and brings a technical eye to her treatment of dancers and artistic athletes. Dinah works regularly with professional dancers from companies such as the National Ballet of Canada, Joffrey Ballet, Dutch National Ballet, Canadian Contemporary Dance Theatre, Singapore Ballet and, Cirque du Solei. Dinah is active in dance science research and is a regular conference presenter.
Follow along on Dinah’s journey: @dinahhampson@pivotdancer
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica
Hello and welcome to The Story Project. Today’s guest is Dinah Hampson, a Physiotherapist passionate about enjoying life and using her knowledge to promote high performance in others. Dinah holds many certifications including the Sport Physio Diploma and International Sports Physiotherapist qualification, the Diploma of Manual & Manipulative Therapy and Pelvic Health Physiotherapy. Dinah is the Founder of Pivot Sport Medicine, a multidisciplinary clinic in Toronto, Canada and Pivot Dancer, a virtual dance injury prevention platform with worldwide membership.
Dinah has been on the Canadian medical team for over 15 multisport games, including the Olympics, Youth Olympics, Paralympic, Pan American, World University and Commonwealth Games. Dinah trained in classical ballet, and brings a technical eye to her treatment of dancers and artistic athletes. Dinah works regularly with professional dancers from companies such as the National Ballet of Canada, Joffrey Ballet, Dutch National Ballet, Canadian Contemporary Dance Theatre, Singapore Ballet and, Cirque du Solei. Dinah is active in dance science research and is a regular conference presenter.
In today’s episode, Dinah Hampson discusses tools and resources for a sustainable career, the narrative that dancers must suffer, her online platform, Pivot Dancer, building mental performance skills, abuse and unsafe practices in dance, injury prevention, the importance of sleep, and the need to normalize strength training in dance.
Please enjoy this conversation with Dinah Hampson…
Alright, hello Dinah!
Dinah Hampson
Hello, Jessica. I am fabulous. I'm so glad we're getting to do this.
Jessica
How are you? I am too. It's been a couple months in the making. So I had a little delay here and there, but here we are and you too. All right. So first I want to ask you, how are you doing today?
Dinah Hampson
Here we are, okay, I can't wait. Let's go, you get to lead. I'm actually doing great today. I think that's my answer pretty much every day. And I don't know when I started to do this, but at some point in time I was like, you know what, there's always something good. I don't know what it is. And some days it's hard to see it, but there's always someone, something good. And I don't feel very good when I start with, you know what, today's been really hard.
Jessica
Mm. Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
So yeah, I'm doing great.
Jessica
I need to incorporate that into my life a little bit more. I really do. That's beautiful. I'm gonna steal that from you. I hope that's okay.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah, you can steal everything.
Jessica
Okay, fantastic. So I would love to start us off with you telling us a little bit about what you do and how you got there. What brought you along to want to do what you were doing? I know that's a huge enormous question, but it's vague on purpose.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah, no, that's good. So, well, I'm Dinah Hampson, and I live in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I work, I live, this is my house, welcome to my house, and I live with one of my daughters who is a 20-something performer, so she is a working actor. And my history is through the performing arts.
Jessica
is beautiful.
Dinah Hampson
out of the performing arts into science. So my professionally, I work as a registered physiotherapist and I have worked in a lot of high performance venues, primarily in sport, but always had dance incorporated and performance incorporated because that was my background. So I, in about 2018, I took my clinical practice and said, well, I've done all this wonderful high performance in sports and I keep seeing all of my performers come through. And why aren't my performers, given the same resources as my athletes. And is there a way that I could take this lived experience and knowledge of me to help assist more in
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
the performing arts world in a greater capacity, then you book an appointment to see your physio, you come and see me. And so that's when I branched my brand, which is Pivot Sport Medicine. I love the name because it's a change in direction and kind of launched this whole pivot dancer piece, which is how you and I have sort of connected through the world.
Jessica
I love it.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Beautiful. So I'm fascinated that you have a daughter performer living at your house. What is that like for you as a mother?
Dinah Hampson
That's amazing. It's like living with a TV character. Yeah, I have two daughters. One is a chemical engineer and the other is a actor performer. So very, you know, you would say very different lifestyles, very different humans, but both wonderful. I promise I gave birth to both of them. So-
Jessica
Wow.
Dinah Hampson
genetically they are related. It's really fun actually. And I don't know that either of my daughters will really understand what they get from parenting until they're much older in life, to be honest. It's really interesting living with a 22 going through the daily process of audition, and maybe get a job,audition, audition. She, so she works at my office as a full-time receptionist, which I thought was hilarious because I don't think she likes people. But I was like, look, just pretend it's a gig. Like pretend you're acting a receptionist. And she's really, really wonderful at it actually. And then she, you know, comes back home and does her auditions. So I love living with her. She went to school in New York.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
for a while at the Lee Strasburg Academy and then came back home because post COVID, everything is virtual. All of her auditions are virtual. So she doesn't really need to be somewhere that doesn't have a roof that is paid for by her parent. And there is room at the end. So I was like, you know what, you should be here. And that works really, really well. So I enjoy it.
Jessica
I feel. Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
is the short answer to your short question.
Jessica
Yeah, that's great. When I worked many front desk, coat check, babysitting, a lot of jobs to pay the bills, I did see it as many other performance opportunities and ways to connect with people and either take... I took a lot in for my writing and there's a lot that you can take from those other jobs that you're having to participate in just to survive and to make money and all those things. So I think that's a wonderful piece of advice to offer.
Dinah Hampson
That's great. And I would say that whether you know it or not, you've just hit like a golden nugget because in my world, I see injured people and injury can be devastating, right? Especially when it's connected to other things in your life. So my performers and my athletes, their injuries are connected to their livelihood.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
and their success in their career or of choice. So it's huge when they're injured. And I try really hard to flip the story and show that the narrative can be, that an injury can be a positive experience because an injury gives you the opportunity to focus on the things that you didn't have to focus on when you weren't injured, which ultimately makes you a better, healthier, physical human, more prepared to do the thing that it is that you want to do. And so, if you can take those jobs that you have to do to survive and get through as a performer
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
find the learning experience or the positive nugget in that, that is absolute perfection. There's always something to be taken, and the attitude of, what can I learn from this? What can I get from this? As opposed to, oh, my goodness, I hate doing this, and why do I have to do this? Will ultimately get you further.
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, that's an amazing point. And it makes me think about the fact that as performers and dancers specifically, we are conditioned into believing that we have the shortest lifespan as dancers and performers, which in a lot of cases is fact because of how much damage our bodies have after all these years. And I would love to speak to you about this point, but that's something that's so ingrained in our heads as we're growing up and then as we become professionals, like do it now, do it before you're 30, and there's this pressure that is just entirely ingrained. And what you are saying is the opposite of that and saying, hey, you can have a long sustained career but it might not involve intense dancing every single day. We might have moments where we pause because we don't have a job or because we're injured or maybe because we just don't want to. And it's allowing us to look holistically at our lives and not just as these machine robots dancing like we used to think or some of us might still think.
Dinah Hampson
Uh-huh, oh yeah, we still, it's like dance, just more dance, like more, more dance. It's like, no! Yeah, I love what's happening in dance. So when I started my professional career as a physio, it was almost 30 years ago. And at that point in time, I was going to conferences and learning and I had all of my dance friends from when I was dancing. And so.
Jessica
Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
You know, I felt very in with the dance world and then in with the physio world. And I would go to these conferences and about dance and, you know, people would kind of bring it up as like, Oh God, dance. Like everyone is unhealthy and you have to be unhealthy because the art form demands it and you have to just dance all the time because the art form demands it. And, uh, you know, how else will you get your technique? And now 30 years later. There's so much science that has come out because dancers have gone to school in programs where they're interested in doing dance related projects. And gosh, it's amazing. Guess what? You don't actually have to dance that much. You can benefit from things like cross training, things like strength training, things like eating smart, sleeping smart, all of the little nuggets of information that were somehow, you know, removed from the dance world is like you had to suffer to be an artist. And it's like, no, you don't actually have to suffer. It's, I see it changing. I don't know if the performers are seeing it change as quickly as we're seeing it change on the...
Jessica
Yeah, there it is.
Dinah Hampson
science end, I fear that it's taking a little while to kind of trickle out into the studios. Probably, you know, in the larger settings, the larger companies, we definitely see science playing a huge role. So if you think of the Australian Ballet and the Royal Ballet are two prime examples of where they've really implemented scientific strategies in the training of their dancers. So they're looking at, you know, what does a year program look like? And how do we train our dancers differently for the repertoire that they're being demanded to do? And, you know, maybe blending our balance sheet number with our contemporary number is not the best idea physiologically because the demand on the body is different. So things like that are really coming out, but I don't see it trickling fast enough.
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
which is why I'm like, no, it has to be faster. There has to be a better way. We have to be able to do this in a way that is affordable, accessible, approachable, affable. It's gotta be attractive. It's all the A's, right? Because we know that we can do things better. We just need to give that information to the people who are doing it.
Jessica
I'm sorry.
Jessica
Hmm. And how are you doing it? Yes.
Dinah Hampson
Well, I'm talking to you and you're talking to all kinds of people. So that's kind of how I'm doing it. I self fund this because I think it's really important. I am tired of the narrative that says dancers must suffer. I'm tired of the narrative that says that they must finish their lives early. I'm turning 55 this year. And when I was 20 something, I thought that was ancient. Now that I'm turning 55, I can assure you that is not ancient. I exercise like, what, I don't know, 10 classes a week I teach now. And I'm coming to New York actually in May doing the four point certification.
Jessica
Mm. No, it's not. Ah!
Dinah Hampson
with Lynn Graham, which I'm really excited about. She was just named artistic director for the English National Ballet. And so I'm definitely not slow and retired. And I know beautiful dancers. I mean, there is one of my favorite dancers here in the National Ballet of Canada. She's in her early 40s now, and I would say she's a better dancer now.
Jessica
Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
than she was in her 20s. Her artistry is incredible. So I think that we need to support our performers to let them A, know that they can do it a lot longer and B, that they can access the tools and resources to help them do that. So my way of doing that is to create
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
At least a resource that people can use. There are definitely other resources. There's not a lot. There needs to be more. So if I can inspire other healthcare practitioners to kind of jump in and be like, that's cool, I want to make a resource for performers, then great. That we just need more. We need so many more. But at least I have one.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yeah, can you tell us about that one? Tell us all about the pivot world.
Dinah Hampson
for the pivot world. So the pivot world in dance is mostly an online platform. And I did that on purpose because I was getting dancers who were coming really far distances. And I was like, OK, well, this is stupid because it's costing you not only money to see me, but it's costing you time to travel. It's costing you money to travel. And it's not going to get you.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
give you the quality of care that you need. Because it's not, you see me once, I wave a magic wand and everything is wonderful. I think if you think of injury as like dentistry, so you know how you see your dentist like a couple of times a year, but then you have all this tooth brushing and flossing and mouth washing that happens in between.
Jessica
Hmm
Dinah Hampson
process with injury and generally, you know, people are like, okay, I need to go see a practitioner X number of times to walk me through this process, which is true. But why can't those touch points be in a group format or in a virtual format, unless you physically need something done to you, like your dentist kind of polishing and scraping, but that only happens two or three times a year. So maybe not everybody needs to physically come and be with a practitioner. So that's why I thought, you know what, let's create something that uses the resources that we have available to us, the internet. You know, my kids laugh at me because they're like, oh my God, mom found the internet.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
And but it's true. I was like, oh my gosh, look at this. I can find all these people.
Jessica
It is amazing.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah, and I mean, Instagram is free. YouTube is free. And caveat to that, there's a lot of interesting things on the internet as well. And that's where perhaps people can run into some rabbit holes that are taking them into places that are not as good. So having a qualified guide who can
Jessica
Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
lead you down the right rabbit holes is still important. The little letters behind people's names, they do mean something and they're good to guide. So my thought was, why don't we take those healthcare people and create a program of, I mean, these are my 150 favorite physio exercises that I give to my performers.
I started teaching these classes because I was like, physio is really boring by yourself. But if you do it with a group of your friends, it's a lot more fun. So then I started recording the classes because I have dancers who are all over the world. And I'm like, well, I can't do it because it's 2 in the morning Singapore time. I'm like, OK, well, we'll record them. So that doesn't cost money. Once it's recorded, it's recorded. And so kind of like your Netflix subscription, you just
Jessica
Right.
Dinah Hampson
You know, get a little subscription and, and you can do these videos all the time. Why not? It's pretty fun. It's pretty fun and like when people find me, I find it's...It's a bit like a like a ha moment. And that's not to say, you know, pivot dancer is for all performers, but it is an option. And I think when people have really been struggling to find something that's affordable, something that they can do with their schedule, which can be really volatile when you're auditioning and performing and you know, who knows where you are next week. It's hard to commit to something that gives you that tooth brushing consistency. And so if I could put it in a little handy dandy app that you can carry around wherever you are, and you don't need a lot of space, then that just makes it easier. And so people are like so excited when they find something that they're like, what? I can do this?
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
anywhere, I don't need equipment, I don't need to go to a studio, I don't need to leave my kids, or I don't have to take transit, I don't have to like, I love the that aha moment of performers, and they do it consistently, and they're like, oh my gosh, like, I'm training less, I'm performing better, and I'm not getting injured.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
And I'm like, there you go, there's a trifecta, you just did it.
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, I was just having a minor meltdown the other day because that happens a lot these days, it's okay. We're working through it. But one of the things I could not stop thinking about was how injured I have been multiple times, multiple times throughout the year when I was in college and after college and things like that. And I really was reflecting upon how resentful I feel that I was not given a better understanding of my body and how to support myself and actually properly take care of myself just to get through the performance, just to get through the college, sure. But also like we were talking about for a sustainably long career. And I still harbor that resentment because I have these...issues still to this day that are some from high school, some from middle school and a ton from college. And so to have a little bit of consistency with a ton of support and so when the head leading this ship saying, look, there's a way that you can take care of yourself. And you're not claiming that no one's ever going to get hurt again and nothing's ever going to happen again, but you're saying, I know from science and my experience, that I have implemented these things into my platform that will best serve you and support you. And that is such a beautiful and important thing.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah, thank you. I mean, I sort of feel like you were handed your toothbrush at age 20. And it's like, I hear you. I would love, I mean, if you have any artistic directors who listen to this, I will talk to every one of you. Like, I understand the barriers. When you're running a program,
Jessica
Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
Like say you're running even just a studio, a community studio, you're running with your head cut off, trying to keep up and often trying to make ends meet and thinking outside of the box of how do I train my performers in performance, really isn't the scope. Like I'm not gonna think of a wonderful way to I don't know, something that's totally out of my scope. I don't know how to garden. I can look at plants and appreciate them, but I don't know the right soil, the right fertilizer, like the right time to plant things. And many artistic directors, I don't think I'm far off base, is they were not brought up with the skills. And so I don't think it kind of
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
comes to mind and if it does come to mind like, hey, it would be really good to put some health care in place, or it would be really good to do some additional training. Finding the right people to fill those positions is another challenge right because selecting artistic staff is probably in their ballpark. Right. I mean, I wouldn't know how to choose artistic staff. I know how to select healthcare staff, because that's my training. And I have yet to see many artistic facilities with healthcare people on their board of directors, or on their academic teaching staff, for example. I think we're gonna get there. I really hope we're gonna get there. But we need to stop the, we have no money, so we're gonna take the lowest common denominator. We're gonna tick the box of healthcare by bringing in a healthcare student. Great, we tick the box. No, no, no. Find somebody who's really good, somebody who's really experienced because they're gonna do things more efficiently and more effectively.
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
So it can't be the lowest common denominator. The artists deserve more than that, right? Your Olympic athletes are not getting junior support. They're getting Olympic coaches. They're getting Olympic healthcare. Your performers need the same, and they deserve the same. So that's kind of one barrier. And I don't think people were trying to.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
hurt you along the way. I think honestly, they just didn't have the tools and resources to give you the tools and resources, which sucks and I'm sorry about that. I think we can change it.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, I love your energy, your positivity. It's like I am, I historically was a very optimistic person. I've become a little, a little bit more cynical as I've aged. So I need to
Dinah Hampson
Thank you.
Dinah Hampson
very cynical, Jessica. I'm an incredibly cynical human. So don't know. No, don't think that. But I do. I really do because I've seen the science. I've seen the changes. And when I go to dance medicine scientific conferences now, it is a very different atmosphere. It's not
Jessica
You have hope, though.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
Oh my goodness, what are we gonna do with our underfed, underslept, overworked dancers? It's, this is what we're gonna do with them. We're gonna give them the tools to know proper nutrition, proper sleep, proper community, that it's okay to say this hurts or I don't like that or I don't feel comfortable in that. We're gonna empower our performers to have a voice and ask for things. It's a really different world in the dance science part. So we just need to trickle it out to all the performers.
Jessica
Yeah, I have two major things about that. So first of all, it connects to the idea that we're all replaceable. Because if we are all replaceable as we have and had historically been told that we were, then it doesn't really matter if you know how to take care of yourself because you will just push yourself until you can't anymore and then they will replace you whether it's in school you learn that or in the professional world or whatever it is. So I would love to hear you speak to that idea a little bit and then I will come back to my second thought so I don't overwhelm the conversation.
Dinah Hampson
No, no, it's devastating that people think that. And there is part of a reality in all professions that everyone is replaceable. I mean, you know, I'm replaceable in some capacities. However, okay, so my way of bulletproofing myself against being replaced is by always striving to do the best job that I can do. Because ultimately, even if a performer is replaced, if that performer has done the best that they can do and they're asked not to be in that position anymore, it's because they don't fit that puzzle. It's not because they're a bad puzzle piece. It's just they need to find the right puzzle that they fit into. I have had countless dancers I've worked with, and primarily I work with dancers as performers. So my language will probably focus more on dance and primarily ballet is who I work with…
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
who are told by an artistic director, you should investigate contemporary dance. You are not built to be a ballet dancer. You will not be a ballet dancer. You will not be a successful ballet dancer. And guess what? They find another company and they are a very successful ballet dancer because they didn't fit the puzzle, but there's nothing wrong with them. So…
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
This is one of the staff I work with. She's a dancer and she's also a mental performance coach. And she used this wonderful puzzle analogy. And I was like, oh, Lauren, I am stealing that. That's amazing. Because that's really what it is. Same with acting. It's not that you are not a good actor. You didn't fit that character in the vision of the director who was creating that project. And that's something that we need to tie in this mental performance piece, right, which is a little different than what I do. But that's why I work with those people. And I really try to kind of prong my performers with all of the different pieces. Okay, my dream, Jessica, is my I have, I have eight performers, musical theater and
Jessica
Mm-mm.
Dinah Hampson
ballet primarily, one Irish dancer. I have eight of these humans who pay me, it's $2,000 Canadian a year. And for that, they come to all of the classes that they want, so they never have to think about, can I pay for this class? They can come see any of us for expert appointments at a small discount. But they get a discount. So it just makes it easier should they need to see anyone one to one. They get goal setting twice a year. And oh, yeah, I gave them a 24-hour hotline. And I was like.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
If you send a message, it will be returned within 24 hours. One of my colleagues was like, how can you do this? And I was like, well, I only have eight people who do this. She's like, what if you have more? And I was like, I hire people. Like this is not a problem. More is not a problem. But what's fascinating to me is I used to, I used to recommend kind of the, the entry level to most of my performers. Cause I know that money is hard. And I was like, look, you know, $150 a year, I can give you all of this recorded information and you can do all of this. And what I found is that those people have a harder time than the ones who don't have to think about it. And I appreciate there's a big difference between $150 a year and $150 a month. However, the not thinking about it… has really empowered them to get the mental performance piece, get the physical performance piece, get the nutrition piece, and have that community of I am supported, I will always be heard, I always have a place to call. So again, not for everybody, but options. And, you know, anyone who calls, I'm going to answer. So it boils down to this finding ways to empower performers. And I think you were talking about the frustration and resentment and that's hard. It's a hard place to be and it shouldn't be that way. So I think what I'm trying to say is if we can collectively as a performing arts support staff, find ways to give performers better access to resources and information that does empower them, then you don't have that resentment. That's what I was coming back to, right? Because we see this in sports all the time. We see gold medalists who resent the heck out of that gold medal. We see athletes who came in like fourth or 14th or 32nd who loved their experience, right? Because they did their best. And if that gold medalist got the gold medal, but they don't feel like they did their best, they actually hold resentment for it. I know it's kind of fascinating, right?
Jessica
That's really fascinating. It reminds me that...You have to work how you feel about yourself through because you can be the gold medalist or on Broadway or a famous TV star, whatever it is, and you can still be miserable. You can still be disappointed in yourself. And so I have said this on the podcast before and I think it all the time. You hit these milestones and these goals and these dreams and they can come true. And then you're like, once I hit this thing, I'm going to feel a certain way. But if you haven't done the work and you don't actually know how to properly care for yourself in all of the ways that's not going to mean much, it's not gonna make you feel better. It's not, it is, yeah.
Dinah Hampson
So if there was one thing that you could magically go back in time and have provided for you that would have made your training experience different than it was and a more positive experience for you, like can you identify anything that would have been sort of tangibly crucial for you?
Jessica
That's an amazing question. I can. I would have asked for someone to see me for me and try to support me as an artist. That really is it because I think that that's the heart of it and the rest of it trickles out from there. I think that the physical issues and the mental issues and everything else that I experienced came from the heart of, oh wait, I'm never gonna be in these companies that you're trying to get us to be in. I'm never going to be able to do the things in this ballet class that you're asking me to do. And instead of feeling bad about those things, what if we just looked and said, hey, actually there are these other strengths that you have. Have you thought about these different trajectories or have you thought about, okay, you know, it doesn't matter that you don't have perfect turnout. So how about you stop trying and stop hurting your body and your mind in the process? Could you imagine such a thing? How much of my life was wasted on trying to improve a turnout that was never going to be improved?
And I said this recently, and I'm sure that as a physio, you have a ton to say about that. But for me personally, and please like, let me know if you disagree with any of this, but I felt like at a certain point, there was only so much that was going to be done. I'm not going to have 180 degree first position. That was never going to be my body no matter what. And so I do think there's certain ways that you can learn to articulate through your feet and use your turnout and all these amazing things. But I think there has to be a point where you say, this is going to be, you know, I can continuously try to improve, but I'm not going to just strive for something that may just be physically impossible for me and drive myself nuts in the process.
Dinah Hampson
Yes, and I would suggest that saying, you're never gonna be able to do this, it's really not a nice thing to say. And maybe giving you some things that you were really good at, that you could be successful at, would have given you the opportunity to go, oh look, I'm really good at that. And that feels really lovely. And oh my goodness, I'm so successful at that. Whereas traditionally I would say in all industries, leaders can be terse and not think about the impact of saying the world's, you know, you will never. That's not a productive thing to say to somebody. I would, you know, sort of suggest to all leaders that they find other things and give people the tools. Like, hey, why don't you try this project here? Or read this book or, you know, see this movie. Things that might twig and inspire in a different way so that you can find your puzzle, right? It's...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
That would be so much better if we could all kind of think that way.
Jessica
And I also want to add that we have to learn how to do that for ourselves as well. Because having people in leadership roles and our teachers and directors do that is so vital. And it's also vital that we know how to do that because that's a hard lesson to be able to focus like you're saying. And it reminds me of CBT, which I'm doing cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm working on honestly, just on my own. I'm not even really doing it with my therapist right now. But
Dinah Hampson
Yeah.
Jessica
it's about a ton of reframing and getting trapped in certain negative thought patterns and working through them and trying to change those patterns. And so if we're hyper focusing on whether it's, oh, I will, you know, I'm using quotes right now, you never have this turnout or never kick my face or whatever it is. And you can work on improving certain things on, you can work on improving certain things and then saying, oh, but these are the things that I'm really wonderful at. And I'm going to dive into that. And to me, eventually I got there to a certain extent. And that's why I'm here having a podcast and I'm doing my writing. And I transitioned more into acting and all these things because I finally was listening to that, but I feel for myself with dance. I still have work to do to come home to it and come home to my body in that way because of that past. And I'm still working on, I think I've gotten a lot better with it though. I've come home to a certain extent, but there's more work to be done.
Dinah Hampson
I feel that you'll get there. You have a very sunshiny vision. Like the world around you seems very sunshiny. And you've created a platform. I mean, you've already done this, right? You've created literally a platform where artistic people can come and go, what's Jessica talking about? Who's she talking to? What are their experiences? What are their stories? Do I hear something in those stories that reminds me of me? And oh, wait, I never thought of thinking of it that way. So you actually are providing a really nice avenue for performers to jump into a different path than you were given. So like, bravo.
Jessica
Thank you. That's the heart of it, to just make it a little bit easier and a little bit better for people in any way that I can. And that's exactly what you are doing. And I also wanted to circle back to when you said at the conferences, you're talking more about empowering dancers to use their voices and speak up for themselves. And I would like to hear a lot more about that, please.
Dinah Hampson
That's amazing. Uh, yeah. So, um, well, there's, there's a lot that kind of came forward in, in the bad, ugly ways in sport, um, about athletes being, uh, abused and about, uh, power differentials being used and athlete athlete, athlete, coach, like the, all the different levels through sport. And lo and behold, this started coming out in dance as well. And so there's been a lot more in the media about practices that are unsafe and practices that are illegal. And people are being called on unsafe practices in ways that they simply were not.
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
50 years ago, 100 years ago. And that's a hard thing, I'm sure, but a very good thing. And there's even looking at the pedagogy of dance. And if you think of the amount of times physical touch is used in dance, and I certainly wasn't asked by one of my teachers…Is it OK if I touch you here? Dancers thinking that, you know, it's normal to need to see somebody for help because every one of my classmates is seeing that person for help. Or, you know, I'm not special, I'm not being asked to be photographed. Well, you're 12 and maybe being photographed is not appropriate.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
So I think the acceptance of bad behavior is no longer accepted in the broader scope of our world in which we live right now. And that's a very good thing. So that's part of the empowerment is dancers, I'll say dancers, performers can say, I'm not comfortable with this and have a voice to do that.
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
The other thing is there's so much more on performance, like skills and mental performance skills. So it's not only training your technique and training your physicality, but having the mental performance. I mean, you can be freaking awesome in practice and you hear of, oh gosh, what is it called? It's… You know, when runners, marathon runners are running and they just, they hit this like, I can't run anymore. And they lose their marathon or, oh, they engulf, they call it, it's like twitching or twigging. You know, they balk, the athletes have this thing. Oh, they just lost it. You know, they can't perform. Well, guess what? Dancers have that too. It's just nobody thought to address it.
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
And so now there's so much more about mental performance, visualization, giving performing artists the okay to say, you know what, you should probably meditate. Like your stress levels way up here, right? Like your mental ability to do this is so important. You can have all the physical skill in the world, but...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
If your mental is going to collapse, then you as a human being aren't prepared to do this. So what I'm hearing at conferences is just so much more writing and resource for performers and dance educators to say, here are the tools, right? You can do here's five easy mental performance check-ins you can do.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
Here's journaling you can do. Here's chat groups you can do. One of the things we do at Pivot Dancer is we have an open chat group. And it's literally free. All you have to do is sign up, and you get a Zoom link, and you can show up, and you can talk to other dancers, other performers from around the world, whoever comes into that group. And the topics are six ways to Sunday, but it's a community and there's no barrier to that. So if people wanna come in and have a resource, we've got one, there are others. And that didn't exist before.
Jessica
How do you encourage a dancer or an athlete to actually speak up in a situation? Because it comes obviously from the leadership and the directors to be more open and responsive and aware, and it also comes down to the person themselves to say...this is wrong or I need this support or I can't do this or whatever it is. It's really hard.
Dinah Hampson
Uh, I think if you, if you give everybody at least one person, one touchpoint that they trust, that they can go to, that's critical. You know, if as a human, if you're left without a single touchpoint of, of trust, then who do you turn to? And if you're like, well, okay, well now, now I'm crazy.
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
Like this is all me and it just must be me and you can go down a very not nice spiral. So, as a physio, we always said the word therapist is in our name, even though what we do is very physical, but that's because we see people and they have to trust us. We literally put our hands on them and we ask first,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
is a very vulnerable place for people. And so we have to have their trust. So we end up talking a lot. And I certainly hear stories that are nothing to do with their injury. But if I'm the person that somebody trusts to say, hey, you know, this thing happened at my studio and I kind of feel funky about it, then it's important that I can then be a part of their support system. So maybe it's giving all performers at least that one trustworthy touch point, whether it's a colleague or a teacher, a peer, a parent, and then making sure that the world knows to listen. Because if somebody's...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
screaming at the top of their head, this is wrong, but nobody's listening, then it doesn't really go very far.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So maybe to anybody listening, a concrete thing to do is to look around you and just pick out one person, honestly, whether or not they are involved with dance or performance, it could even just be somebody that you trust in general to be a sounding board period and hopefully you have somebody who's connected in some way and can offer more concrete advice, support, whatever it is, but finding somebody that you trust to say something to is a good first step.
Dinah Hampson
I would say that's a great first step. And to your point, there are touch points. And so if you don't know them, then maybe the person that you're talking to does. So, you know, feel free, like pivottancer.com at pivottancer. You will find me and until I die, I will make sure that performers are protected. In the States, there's a really good resource called Minding the Gap. And have you heard of them?
Jessica
I have, I have. Wonderful work.
Dinah Hampson
Okay, so exactly. So Minding the Gap is available. Let's see, in the States there's also the Dance Ready Project. They do great work. The International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, which is a really, really big, long, scary name. So call it iAdams, because it makes it really small. But...That's a whole association of dance science people. And I'm sure that if anybody in need sent out a message saying, hey, I just have a question, then somebody will connect you with the right person. The Performing Arts Medicine Association, otherwise known as PAMA, another great organization full of very smart, resourceful people.
If you are in a place where you're questioning what is happening to you, and certainly if you ever felt unsafe, then please, I would reach out to myself, to Mind the Gap, iatoms, PAMA 911, depending on the circumstances. So, you know, absolutely. Absolutely, talk is good. Feeling like you're alone is awful. So, all right, well, we'll get vulnerable here. When I grew up, I was very, very alone and dance was my safe place. So when I went to the studio,
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dinah Hampson
that's where I felt safe, because everything else was not safe. And so I guess, I mean, I was fortunate to have the studio as my safe space. And I strongly feel that dancers are a vulnerable population, simply because of the nature of limited clothing, lots of mirrors, lots of evaluation all of the time, self-evaluation and evaluation by examiners, by adjudicators, by directors, by choreographers. The list is kind of endless. So if you don't have a tough skin and a lot of resources, that can be really hard. Somebody like me. So, you know, although Pivot Dancer was
Jessica
me too.
Dinah Hampson
invented to give people primarily the injury prevention skills and the physical strength skills, there's an underlying current of I want no dancer to feel alone. I want no dancer to feel unsafe. I want every dancer to have at least one resource so they can go, oh, okay, pivot dancer, we know, we know that they are reliable, trustable, actual healthcare, like they have certifications that say that they're gonna help me. That was part of what I was trying to do.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I think that that's an issue a lot of people have with going to college or becoming professionals or wherever it is where dance is your home. Whether it's the physical studio and everybody in it and or just the act of dancing, it can be home in our bodies, in our lives. And so when for whatever reason, whether it's something really serious and dangerous or even it's just you not knowing your relationship with it anymore or not finding your place, finding your puzzle piece, where do I belong in this world? It can be really depleting and discouraging and even worse at times. I know for myself, it's really painful to have this be a part of you and something you love so much and so much a part of you and then navigating the aftermath of that and saying, where does that fit, where does dance fit with me? And also what does that mean about me and my own identity and how I express myself and all of that.
Dinah Hampson
Well, it will happen. People will figure it out. And for me, I never thought my place in dance would be helping dancers. I thought I was the dancer. That was my safe space. I loved it. Dance was my joy. My joy is actually so much bigger in being able to give the dance community a resource that's going to live a long time after I will. That's cool. You know, so maybe Jessica, your role in dance is different than you ever thought possible.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Got them tears in my eyes. You got me. Yeah. What was that like for you as you navigated transitioning out of being a dancer? Or do you still see yourself as a dancer? No.
Dinah Hampson
Yes. No, I mean, maybe a kitchen dancer occasionally. But I, I was I was in a really grumpy place in my world. And so there was there was a lot of reasons why I left dance. And I kind of tried to shut the door on a lot of things that were happening in my world at the time. And it was it was maybe not intelligent or thought out well. But it was what I did at the time. I think because I left with such anger that I didn't care. And it wasn't until I got a little older.
And that's when I fell in love with dance again, because I could see it through a totally different lens. But I had to step back from it, and then find my power in a totally different way. Right? And so my power as a mom, and my power as a friend, and my power as a colleague and my power as a researcher. I think it's so cool that I can teach other physios, I can teach other dancers, I can create programming that's helpful for so many people. It's an incredible joy now when I go to the theater and I know the majority of the people on the stage, but not because I'm dancing with them, but because I know their stories about like what they're doing to, you know, just be healthier, happier humans, and that comes across in their dancing. So it's a totally different relationship with dance now, and one that I absolutely love.
Jessica
Hmm. Incredible. What made you choose physiotherapist specifically?
Dinah Hampson
Um, because I didn't need to do calculus and because I could travel the world. And I again was coming from a, like, I quit dance, I quit life. I hate everything. I'm going to take off and go, you know, I didn't really go that far, but, um, that was kind of my plan was I can do this job and I can go anywhere. Um. And I thought it was cool and it was movement. And I have to say, you know, as a physio, I use dance all the time. I mean, I had those teachers who would put hairpins, you know, between your fingers so that you had the exact, and I still hold my fingers exactly like this because that's just how they go. So when I look at somebody, I can...
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
I can tell annoyingly their physical things from just watching them. And that I get from dance. So I am a way, way better physio because I was a dancer.
Jessica
Mmm, it's like your superpower.
Dinah Hampson
I know, isn't that cool?
Jessica
That's so cool.
Dinah Hampson
I know the dancers are sometimes like to super freaked out about it. They're like, how did you know that? Like I'll say like, oh, that's your jump leg. Oh, that's your landing leg. Oh, that's your turning side. Oh, that's your, you know, oh, you don't like to do port de bras on the left. Like, and they're like, yeah.
Jessica
Do you see people walking down the street and you're noticing things all the time? Oh yeah.
Dinah Hampson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm a very annoying person to have lunch with on a patio.
Jessica
I would love it because I feel like I notice things like that all the time, but I don't have any real knowledge about it. So that would be more annoying. So I'll just be like, something's off with that person. I don't know what it is.
Dinah Hampson
Okay, but that would make you an excellent physio because if you can tell that something's like off, something's imbalanced, something's like, no, that movement, there's something interesting about that movement. That's step number one. You find the thing that's interesting and then you know to like figure it out why. It's like being a physical detective.
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica
Mm, I love the idea of that. I feel like I do that a lot because my undergrad was also psychology and I've always loved psychology and I do that a lot with human beings. Don't be scared if you're listening to this and you talk to me. I'm not sitting there and analyzing everything. I just notice things. And I think that's also what makes me very intuitive and empathetic and why I love to connect with people. It's just also fascinating on top of just enjoyable and all of that.
Dinah Hampson
Oh yeah, you know, your, your journey is just beginning. Like, I think you actually are going to go somewhere totally that you didn't think you were going to be.
Jessica
Yeah, I can see that for myself because I don't know, I don't really know what the F is going on right now. So I have a lot, everything just feels kind of chaotic. I don't know if it's something going on in the world or about to turn 30 next in June. So I think there's also some psychological stuff happening with that, but there's a lot, there's a lot percolating a lot of moving through at this moment of time. So we'll see, but I think you're probably, I think you're probably analyzing me correctly, I will say.
Dinah Hampson
Amazing. Well, I feel like we could probably talk for hours, but I also feel that you probably want to let your listeners have a break from me.
Jessica
No, this is amazing. I have like a couple more things and then we can wrap it up. Okay, so I would love to know what is, you know, of course, everyone here, I hope you go and check out what I'm calling the pivot worlds, which is the whole all the all the amazing things that Dinah's doing. And just from right now, what's one little thing that you could suggest that dancers, performers, or just anybody listening could do on a daily basis to start making a positive change in their bodies?
Dinah Hampson
Please leave turnout in the studio. So parallel has been shown to be of extreme importance for muscle balance and physical alignment. So we know that most dance forms use turnout as a base of a lot of the work. Even in Irish, which is really parallel, there's a lot of turnout. So , turnout is incredibly important in a lot of technique work, but please in your non dance world, like when you're walking down the street, I should not be able to identify you by your turnout. Um, it sounds ridiculous, but if you just walk parallel and stand parallel and leave turnout in the studio, that alone will do an awful lot.
Jessica
Mmm.
Dinah Hampson
to help with your muscle balance for all the way up the chain. And it's an easy thing to do.
Jessica
Whew, all right, that's a fantastic one. I feel like personally I need to circle back to how to live through an injury. And I know that's like a longer, long conversation, but maybe not.
Dinah Hampson
Mmm. Okay, so I would get the information on your injury that you need to understand your injury. And Dr. Google is not necessarily the right place to get that. You can convince yourself of a lot of things when you're reading about like, whoa, that's me. Yeah, it's kind of like horoscopes at the...
Jessica
I've never done that before. That doesn't sound like me at all.
Dinah Hampson
the county fair, they'll sound like you. So reading Dr. Google is not necessarily the best place to do. I would, if you have an injury, and I would consider an injury to be pain that lasts longer than 48 hours without improvement. So pain that lasts longer than 48 hours without improvement and pain that is stopping you from doing your activity. And that would mean like if you're doing dance and you're like, I'm not gonna do jumps, I'm not gonna do turns, I'm not gonna do center, that would be stopping. So either of those two things will, oh, I just sent balloons flying. They will send you to get a diagnosis, right? So that's when you really should
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
seek some sort of actual medical, not Dr. Google, assessment analysis. Because then you get the information right away. So now you know how to deal with it. Now you know how to manage it properly. And sometimes that information is, this is OK. That's fine.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Great.
Dinah Hampson
Right? And sometimes it's, you know, this is broken. This needs to be repaired. This needs, like, whatever it is. But the faster you get that information, the less your brain is going to wonder what the heck is going on. And your body is going to be compensating for that thing that is still painful. So in terms of managing injury, just get the information as quickly as possible.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Dinah Hampson
Two, don't stop. So if your ankle is injured and it's very obviously swollen and sprained and you're obviously going to be off doing what it is that you're doing, you still have 95% of your body that is functional that is not your ankle. So you can still do planks. You can still do arm work, you can still do core work, you can still stand on your other leg, you can still do leg lifts. There's an awful lot of work that you can still do. And I find that the jump from I will do nothing from injury is a very quick jump. Like, oh, well, I can't do everything, so I will do nothing.
Jessica
That doesn't sound like dancers at all. All or nothing mentality, no, no.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah, it's not a productive one, right? Because then we have this, and we've already said that the key to long career and the key to injury prevention is consistency. So if 5% of you have a really awful injury, that's okay. There's 95% of you that doesn't.
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
Psychologically, you're going to feel so much better if you keep up some physical activity. Psychologically, sitting out in class is awful. So, like, look on your app, do some exercises, take that time. And if you're not studying repertoire, why are you sitting in class? Like, use that time to do your exercises, to strengthen.
Jessica
Awful.
Dinah Hampson
other things, to do your journaling, to do your mindfulness. That's way more productive than sitting and watching class. Okay, so one, find out the information. Two, stay active. Three, use a buddy system, right? That's when you call Pivot Dancer, that's when you call Jessica, that's when you, you know. Get your buddy system going so that you're not ever in the alone spiral of like, oh God, my life is ending. It's not. Find the buddy system. Four, explore the other things that you don't have time to do that you want to do. Like those cookies that you have been wanting to make that you didn't have time to make. Or the note cards that you wanted to write because
Jessica
Hmm.
Dinah Hampson
mailing things to people is kind of fun. And it's not sent by owls or carrier pigeons and it's kind of cool to get a letter. Do something that's fun and unusual that you don't usually have time to do. I love these dino words of wisdom. This is hilarious. I'm gonna make a blog. I feel like I need five. It's like a full hand's worth of advice. Oh gosh, sleep. Sleep is a magical thing and often lacking. Sleep is very restorative. Sleep is very important for injury recovery. Sleep is when your body actually does a lot of healing. So get some sleep. There you go. There's five.
Jessica
So…specifically with younger people, because I feel like as you get older, you realize how much you really need to properly warm up and cool down because you've had injuries. So you're like, oh, I can't just dive into this thing anymore. How do we encourage anybody to also think about preventative? Yeah, there we go. Get some excitement there. Because usually we just don't know it until it's too late or we don't think we need it until okay, now that I had an injury that was bad enough that it sat me out, now I'll maybe do some, some better warmups and whatever it is.
Dinah Hampson
Okay, so in my big grand dream plan, I'm going to have Pivot Dancer, or something like Pivot Dancer in every single studio. So when the kids are learning butterflies and jumping whatever they are, sharks, they are also learning how to do a proper pushup. I cannot tell you how many dancers I have met who cannot do a proper push up like one, one proper push up. And it's not that push ups are the end all be all, please don't take that away from this. But I want the small dancers, the younger dancers to be taught as part of their dance syllabus, strength syllabus. So it's just there from the beginning. If you're taking dance class, part of that dance class is parallel and doing squats, you know, before you go into turnout. And that's my dream, is to have the little syllabus of strength, we'll call it, that accompanies the syllabus of dance so that it's simply part of how they learn.
Jessica
Mm.
Dinah Hampson
That's a big dream, but I'm gonna work on it.
Jessica
Yeah, I love that dream. I love that dream.
Dinah Hampson
You just have to normalize it, right? As soon as you normalize it for kids, it's normal. But right now, strength is the first thing that gets cut off the timetable and replaced with rehearsal. And strength is the first thing that the junior teacher gets asked to do. So that we need to change. And I think by making it affordable and accessible, that I can help.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Fantastic. Okay, now this I promise is the final one and it is, what is your human bio? And I know we kind of touched upon a million things about you as a human, but what is the bio of Dinah that exists off of your resume?
Dinah Hampson
Oh, goodness. Um, Jeepers.
Jessica
That's a common response.
Dinah Hampson
I don't like the thing that I do that I don't tell anyone. Okay, well, I would say Dinah is a human who's had to live through some pretty significant traumas. And through those traumas has found a strength and an empathy that powers everything that she brings to the world.
Dinah Hampson
Yeah.
Jessica
Perfect. I feel like I could replace your name with my name and really identify with that human bio. So thank you for sharing it. And I'm going to borrow it in my own heart for myself. Thank you. All right. Well, this was incredible. You are so bright and amazing. And I've had so many tears in my eyes throughout this conversation. Like, We'll have many more. I have a lot of fun ideas about how we could do more stuff together. So I'll keep the brainstorming going.
Dinah Hampson
I would love that. That's amazing. Well, I really appreciate you asking me on your program. And if you and I can help other people and find resources, absolutely, like, let's do it. Let's kill it. I really, really firmly believe that we can positively impact the world of dance for dancers.
Jessica
Yes. There it is. Okay, thank you so much.
Dinah Hampson
You're welcome. Okay, bye.
Jessica
Bye.