Mental Health & Equity in Theater with Tuan Malinowski
SHOW NOTES
In today’s episode, Tuan Malinowski discusses:
their non-traditional path from musician to grass-roots choreographer
imposter syndrome and self-doubt as a choreographer
the importance of setting boundaries for mental health and how it has helped ease their anxiety
their experiences of quitting jobs because of emotionally unsafe and toxic environments
the impact of white supremacy in the theater industry and the need to focus on equity and inclusion in the workplace
the importance of challenging traditional practices in the current musical theater space
Tuan Malinowski is a New York-based choreographer/director/creative and actor who was most recently the associate choreographer for a workshop of Miss Step at MCC Theater and the associate director for The Perfect Game at Theatre Row. They choreographed a re-imagined Pippin at Weathervane Theatre and directed a reading of the licks.
Tuan’s work as a choreographer has also been seen at Jay Armstrong Johnson’s I Put A Spell On You: The Witches Era and Leg Up On Life’s Night of Life, as well as at universities such as Texas State University, Viterbo University and the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
As an actor, Tuan played Scott in the developmental reading of S/He & Me, written by and starring Alexandra Billings. They have performed at regional theatres across the country, such as Pittsburgh CLO, Casa Mañana, Kansas City Starlight Theatre, Flat Rock Playhouse, Artpark, Utah Festival Opera and Cider Mill Playhouse. Tuan received their BFA from Ithaca College.
Follow along on Tuan’s journey: @tuanmalinowski
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica
Hello and welcome to The Story Project. Today’s guest is Tuan Malinowski, a New York-based director and choreographer, who most recently choreographed Cabaret at Northern Stage. They were the chosen choreographer for New York Theatre Barn’s Choreography Lab, where they were mentored by Emmy-winning, Tony-nominated choreographer Joshua Bergasse.
Tuan’s work as choreographer has also been seen at Jay Armstrong Johnson’s I Put A Spell On You: The Witches Era, Leg Up On Life’s Night of Life, Weathervane Theatre, as well as at universities such as Texas State University, Ithaca College, Viterbo University and the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
They have associate and assistant credits at theatres such as Goodspeed Musicals, Pittsburgh CLO and Theater Row. Tuan has performed at regional theatres across the country, such as Pittsburgh CLO, Casa Mañana, Kansas City Starlight Theatre and Flat Rock Playhouse. Tuan received their BFA from Ithaca College. They are a member of Actors’ Equity Association and an associate member of Society of Directors and Choreographers.
In today’s episode, Tuan discusses their non-traditional path from musician to grass-roots choreographer, imposter syndrome, setting boundaries for mental health, the impact of white supremacy in the theater industry and the need to challenge traditional practices and focus on equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Please enjoy this conversation with Tuan Malinwoski…
Jessica
Oh my gosh, hi! How are you?
Tuan
Hi, I am so good. This is so exciting. Technically, this is my first podcast like that I have been a guest on. I'm so excited, happy to be here, happy to meet you through this experience and this medium. So funny, so brilliant.
Jessica
Well, welcome.
Jessica
Yes, it is. So I am this is the start of season three. Welcome everybody. We're so happy to be here. And so most of my season three guests I have not met before. And I have not actually spoken to except in our emails or DMs trying to schedule this. So just giving that as a preface. This is our first time ever speaking…
Tuan
Woo!
Jessica
in real life and seeing your face over the zoom and everything like that. So I am very, very happy to have you and grateful that you would just kind of hop on board and see where this little ride takes us together. So thank you for being here.
Tuan
Thank you for having me. So excited.
Jessica
You too. Okay, so before we hit record, we just dove right in and I was like, hold on, we have to just start here. So you didn't have a long history of dance training until you went to college. Correct. Okay, so please tell us about this.
Tuan
Yes, So basically, I'll kind of start a little bit with my upbringing and then we can kind of lead into the lack of dance training and then the dance training.
Jessica
Please. You are speaking my language!
Tuan
So basically, okay, we'll just give a I'll give a short bio of my life. I grew up in Buffalo, New York. I'm adopted. My parents are white. I am Asian. You can't see me right now everybody, but I am an Asian person. And basically growing up my family is very middle class. They are sport centric, sports city very, very just not in the world that I really resonated with and things that I didn't respond to. That being said, all that to say, my family and I were not aware of resources in terms of arts training kind of thing. I primarily started as a musician. I was a flautist for many years to the point where I almost studied it in college. Like it was around very seriously. Like it was all state band, like, I was in this like regional orchestra in my hometown. I took lessons every week. I was disciplined and quite serious. Cut to all the while still doing like my public school musicals once a year. So I was engaging in the art form to some degree, more recreationally. And basically around my junior year of high school, I was practicing as one does a sonata on the flute.
It was either at home or in band or whatever. And I remember thinking to myself, and I do not know how at such a young age, 16, I was able to think like this, but I remember thinking, oh my God, I don't enjoy practicing the flute. I don't enjoy practicing. I only enjoy when we're performing on stage. And in my head as a naive 16 year old, for some reason I was able to think, if I'm not enjoying the process, if I'm not enjoying the actual work, if I was to study this in college, I would be in a practice room. I wouldn't be on stage every day. Like, and then it got me thinking, but what do I like the act of engaging with the art form in its technically barest of forms, which is not for an audience in rehearsal about the work. And I thought, I love going to musical rehearsal. And it didn't matter about the costumes and the lights and the applause and the on stage. It was about really just like doing the work, doing the craft.
And I remember thinking, I'm pivoting. So after that, I was already, I should have mentioned I was already in voice lessons, like throughout middle school and high school. So I was taking voice lessons. And then around my junior year of high school, I thought, I told my parents, and it was kind of the naivete because they didn't know much about musical theater. They were like, yeah, why not? Like not knowing anything about what was to come or how to audition for colleges. So I was in voice lessons and then we decided to sign me up for like a jazz one class, my junior year of high school. And I love the studio that I went to. It was… people that go there have become professionals, but it is not a competition studio. It is not, it is more for people that like it and do like to train. But I took one jazz class and I had never taken a dance class in my life. I mean, I don't really remember anything from that experience.
Meaning that we'll get to it, but the real training happened in college. But I was exposed to like what a pot of bourrée was in this jazz one, my junior and senior year of high school. It was more for me to take those kinds of things so that when college auditions happened, I wasn't like totally what the heck is going on. Um, so basically that was kind of my first exposure to dance and then cut to…I auditioned for colleges the next year, my senior year. I wasn't aware of college prep programs. I know there are many things out there for young musical theater. High schoolers that wanna pursue this, I was not aware. I mean, I was the person with like two pages of sheet music, like in a binder, like raw, like just trying to sing a song I liked, had no idea about types or roles or anything storytelling, had no acting training.
Luckily, I did get into college, I ended up going to Ithaca College for musical theater, a BFA in musical theater, which for those…
Jessica
Which is a great program.
Tuan
it really is, I am very, so pro Ithaca and the training I had. But for those that don't know it is primarily an acting training, like program, meaning that the BFA musical theater and the BFA acting majors pretty much take the same classes, like script analysis, text work, scene study, movement and movement not meaning dance movement like mask work like very actory viewpoints kind of things um but the musical theater majors obviously take voice lessons a few musical theater classes and then there are dance um prerequisites and things that you need to take however ithaca does not have or did not have at the time a bfa dance major meaning so the dance faculty were solely teaching the musical theater majors which is great but just to give some background that the program was not.. there was no BFA dance major attached to the school. So I get to college, ballet one, first year of college, I'm learning what a tendu is. I'm learning truly, I'm starting with no toolbox, basically, and acquiring a skillset. And I always did like to move though. I was a hyperactive child, I still am, that would like throw on music as a kid and just like bounce around and like move my body.
Jessica
Mmm… Wow.
Tuan
So I always enjoyed the act of engaging with the physical self. And so I really loved dancing in college. I, once again, for the first two years, I couldn't solidly land a double pirouette, but like I just enjoyed the act of expression through the vessel of the human body. And then I did start to get okay at dancing. I still don't consider myself like...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
a wildly masterful dancer of my craft, but I can dance. But I started to kind of settle and really start to solidify my technique and skill set and craft with dance my junior and senior year of college. But it was still kind of a thing of like, I went to a BFA program, I want to perform. So I'm using these classes as a gateway to performance, not necessarily creation or composition.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
So my senior year of college, me and a few of my other Asian classmates were very frustrated at the time with the lack of casting opportunities in the main stage season. And I decided on a whim that I was going to get the rights to and direct out of thin air, keep in mind never had directed a staged reading of David Henry Huang's play, Yellow Face, to include all of the Asian students in the program at the time. And we were going to invite all of our professors so that they could see us do our work in a play that highlighted our capabilities instead of seeing us or seeing us engage with monologues or scenes in class that were tailored more towards whiteness. And the program has changed and many programs have changed since.
But I think at the time, the program was really unknowingly or willingly catering towards whiteness and heteroness, which was, oh, we're assigning you a scene from said play, which was written for and starring a straight white guy and having people of other identities conform to that. So anyway, point is, the goal of me directing this and I was also in it, classic college, like bare bones, I was in it and I directed it kind of thing, but it taught me how to rent out, bring together a team to collaborate on this stage reading, I had to buy the rights. I, whatever, whoever it was, Concord Theatricals, Samuel French, whoever, I had to engage with them and kind of learn to be a self-starter, which was, which this long-winded answer will play into what you're asking. So, oh, something that is pertinent to this story is that my sophomore year of college, I was cast as a swing in this play, Anonymous.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
The Ithaca College brought in a guest director from New York. Jen Weinman is her name, who is a very dear friend and mentor and someone that I credit a lot to starting me off earlier. She was brought in from New York. She, at the time, for us 18-year-olds, she was this hot director. Not hot in the sexual sense, hot in terms of the craft and the fireiness. She graduated from Yale, had her MFA from Yale.
Jessica
Yeah.
Tuan
She came in, she guest directed, I was one of the swings. And to be honest, being 19, I was eager. So often because I was a swing and I was on the side, she would look at me and the other swing and say, like, what do you think of this moment? Or like any ideas. And I would start to think about the bigger picture and storytelling as a whole instead of just the cog in the machine that is acting, which is a very valuable cog in the machine, not dismissing that, but looking at
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
the art of theater in a different way than I had been. So, reason I sidetracked is to go back, senior year I had directed Yellowface, the staged reading, I graduated. I worked at this really... Toxic Theater Company, the summer after I graduated college. I had a horrible experience, racism, transphobia, queerphobia, you name it. This is not the point. But I had sort of this quarter life crisis of, oh my God, I spent four years getting my BFA to do this. And to, and the show…was, I'll just say it because it's funny, the show was Mamma Mia, which people love Mamma Mia, once again, no dissing. And that's the beautiful thing about this art form is there's something for everybody and people respond to different things and this art form is meant to be enjoyed and to see what you enjoy, see what you don't enjoy. So I just want to preface that I'm not dishing on anyone that likes dishing, dissing on anyone that likes Mamma Mia. For me personally, it was kind of.
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
not the most fun experience due to a combination of the show and the administration, the artistic staff.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
So over that summer, me and a friend that I had met, her and I decided to choreograph a piece for a midnight cabaret that this theater was doing. And I had never choreographed before, but she was a dance major in college and had much more experience with that…but I just liked expressing myself. So it was kind of this co-choreographed little number that we did for this Midnight Cabaret. And that was my first time ever choreographing, but it was really just for fun. That was my first time experiencing the art of choreography. And then basically due to the toxicity of the theater and me not having a great experience, After that summer was over, I was exhausted.
Jessica
Hmm... Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And I truly in my head was like, I don't think I wanna perform anymore. After one go post-college. Like I was basically thinking, oh gosh, this is not really the art I wanna be making or what the type of artists I wanna be making it with. And I kind of was in a rut. Cause at that point in my life, performing really was the only thing I knew. Besides these glimmers, like I've been saying, directing a stage reading and now choreographing at this Midnight Cabaret, like performing was all I knew and I really didn't, my eyes were not open to other mediums within this art form to express oneself and to do the work. After that summer though, even though in my head I was like, I'm done performing, eff it. I still had already planned to move to New York. I already had a sublet lined up. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll go to New York even though I know kind of that like, I really didn't want to perform at the time.
So I moved to New York. And within two weeks of me moving there, I moved in September of 2018. The guest director that I referred to from Ithaca, Jen Weinman, emailed me, cold, and said, hey, I really liked working with you a few years ago. We collaborated well, you had a good eye. I saw on Facebook that you have just graduated.
my normal assistant is unavailable for this project. And I don't know at all if this is something you'd want to do, but I'm looking for an assistant director and assistant choreographer for this brand new musical at Pittsburgh CLO. And I was like, F yeah. Like I wanted to still do theater. And it was the perfect thing of like, I had moved to New York. I didn't know what the F I was doing. So I was like, let me get out of New York, do something in theater, but that's not performing with someone that I really enjoyed working with at this theater that I'd never worked for on a new musical. Like talk about masterclass learning city, like something to engage and soak things in. So I did that. I moved, I did that and it was a wild whirlwind. I felt like a hamster on a hamster wheel, like…
Jessica
Yeah. Mm.
Tuan
Because the musical had already had, like many musicals do, a workshop beforehand, a reading. So all the collaborators had kind of immersed themselves in this world. And not only did I not know the show, I was also had never been an assistant before. So it was this true feeling of like, everything's moving around me and I'm just trying to stay afloat. It was a fantastic experience, really. I moved back to New York after that, I started to assist her again on several other projects in the cities, workshops, readings,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And then it got to the point where I started reaching out cold to other directors, early career directors in the city, specifically BIPOC and queer directors of kind of like, hey, I have a few assisting credits under my belt, I'd love to grab coffee or assist you. So I started to hear in there assist other people on things here and there. Um, and basically I did a few of those and then in my head, keep in mind, this is all in the span of like six months. Like I moved to the city in September of 2018. This is now spring of 2019, like six months apart. Basically after I did a few more assisting jobs with other people, I kind of missed performing for a minute. So I decided I was unrepresented also at the time to jump into what people refer to as audition season.
At the tail end of it though, because keep in mind it's the spring of 2019. By some lucky fate stars, whatever you'd like to call it, I booked two jobs for that summer as an actor. Both jobs offered me my equity card. One was this very funny production of The Wizard of Oz at Kansas City Starlight Theater. It's an outdoor theater. It was a gorgeous venue, but The Wizard of Oz is so funny. Especially as an adult ensemble member, you're like a poppy flower, etc. A tree. And then I was in Peter Pan at Pittsburgh CLO, my return there as an actor. And they were wonderful. Both jobs. I had a blast. However, creeping in creative brain, I remember thinking, wow, this is so amazing. The creatives were great. The theaters were great. But because it's regional theater and there's a time crunch and sometimes there is this element of, okay, you come out, stand on this number, kick your face and run off stage right.
Jessica
Yeah.
Tuan
And once again, not dismissing that, it needs to happen in short processes. But I remember thinking, oh, I'm still lacking something creatively. Like something within me wants to express myself more then running on, doing a double pirouette, kicking my face and running off. So I moved back to New York. This is now basically the fall of 2019, so after the summer. I started auditioning newly as an equity actor because both theaters had offered me my card. I took it, whatever. I started auditioning going to ECC's EPAs. Draining. Draining. I mean, I was still young and super eager and like, I'm going to go to everything even if I'm not right for it. So I was really burned out. And basically, I was talking with a bunch of my friends, once again, at this point, specifically BIPOC and queer people and kind of saying, Okay, what do we do outside of these EPAs and ECCs where we are primarily auditioning for white people and they have a very specific view of what they think characters and stories are. And obviously they can only see stories through their lens. So I'm not dissing, you know, but as you know, like, where is this and how do we investigate and explore our own inner artistry without the confines of commercial musical theater?
Someone had this idea of like, Tuan, you should, you're talking about this a lot. You should organize some sort of thing where we can like create and play and do other things. And I was like, well, like what? Like, what could we do? And then someone was like, oh, you should choreograph a piece. And I was truly stunned of like, yo, like I'm still not a choreographer. Like at that point I wasn't. Once again, I had assisted, I had choreographed once for fun at a theater, midnight, cabaret, but I have not ever really seriously engaged with the art of creation myself. But because as you can kind of see the story, I am a very passionate person that is kind of a go-getter. I was like, yes, I'll, I'll do it. So basically I started a GoFundMe raised to like $500 to pay for studio space, etc.
And I called it at the time, Diversity and Inclusion Choreography Project. And what that ended up being is around, I can't remember now, but 14, 16 of my friends, primarily people of color and queer people, we attempted, I attempted at the time, to reinvent and kind of re-examine a number from promises, promises choreographically. I say attempt, because obviously being older, don't we always look back? And I'm like, well, I tried, but the intent was there and it needs to happen. The trying needs to happen. I always say like, you can't learn how to ride a bike by just reading the manual. You have to get on and fall. So like, failure is invited to me. It is exciting. It is part of the theater making process is the risk taking and the trying again. Anyway, we did that. We filmed it professionally. Part of the money that I raised was to go to a videographer.
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
And then we really liked that. So throughout the kind of months of auditioning, we did around one more of those. I did one more GoFundMe, one more bigger number, and it was, come on everybody, from all shook up. But we kind of took this Korean K-pop energy and the person that played, whoever the Elvis character was, was a Korean man and we kind of reinvented what it was. We didn't use any period moves. We didn't use any Lindy's, we didn't use any… Charleston's not that that's from that era, but you know what I mean. We didn't use movement vocabulary from that era. So I was starting to develop an actual artistic voice with intentionality versus kind of, oh, let's do promises, promises and reinvent it. Which once again is a fantastic impulse, but what's the fleshed out version of that?
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And point is that I started to get to that intentional art making, with this come on, everybody, which once again, I still am like it was an attempt, but it was more of an intentional attempt. And then COVID happened. So everything shut down, obviously. And the point of this long-winded story is that I started to acquire real material. R E E L, not R E A L, meaning that because I had started to self-produce these little videos, I had a choreography reel, kind of unintentionally. And the first things in New York to kind of come back were like little fellowships and labs and mentorships.
And New York Theater Barn, this was truly in 2020, posted that they were going to do a two-week mentorship where they would choose a choreographer and you would be mentored by a Broadway choreographer. Which frankly was really only a co- it was truly one of those COVID things because no one was doing anything.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
So they offered this mentorship with Joshua Burgos. Iconic. Emmy winner. Like, and you know, in any other circumstance, he's so busy, but it was COVID so we were all- it was an equalizer. I decided to put my real footage together and apply. Once again, Never had choreographed a show even, still was kind of a recreational choreographer. Due to a combination of factors, luck obviously always a factor, I got it. And I remember panicking at first of being like, oh my gosh, like I'm a choreographer, like obviously I had always been, but this like realization of now that other people see me that way. So I did it. I learned a lot. It was a two week lab where I got to work with five dancers, fully masked, sit six feet apart, and Josh would watch my process and give feedback. And it was so incredibly what I needed at that time. Josh is such a gracious person, brilliant, creative, and was a mentor in a way that really left room for me to still create, was not prescriptive.
I think being, I think mentorships and things with choreography, there tends to be a gray area..of at the end of the day, obviously choreographers create with their aesthetic and their personal taste. But I think a good mentor is able to put that aside and actually facilitate whoever the mentees choreographer is, still have a critical eye and offer feedback, but is able to leave room of and be objective of kind of putting aside like, you know, maybe in a million years, I would never do that. But working with you are providing what…
Jessica
Right.
Tuan
is some feedback that I can give. Anyway, that was very Josh. Josh was very much a fantastic mentor. So I did that and I had that under my belt. And then still 2020, 2021, theaters, many theaters started to rethink their creative teams that they would bring in for the seasons of their shows. And we're looking to… outsource, maybe creatives that have not been given opportunities. Once again, BIPOC and queer people or both, women as well. And this is many theaters, but point is, is that people were, artistic directors were posting on Facebook, on Instagram, kind of being like, we want to expand our rosters, which is a beautiful thing at the end of the day, whatever the intention maybe was. So, I started to interview for choreography jobs.
Obviously, a lot of them went nowhere. I had never choreographed a show. Like, keep in mind, like, I still was kind of really raw. But Weathervane Theatre took a chance on me. And they literally allowed me with almost no experience to choreograph their equity mainstage production of Pippin. I'm laughing at it now because it looking back, I'm like, okay, meaning that like, how did you let this kid I was like 24. But I mean, I am so grateful to them. Like they gave me that space to flesh out my process cause and we'll dive into this. For me, there's a difference between, there's several facets of being a choreographer. Obviously there's the art of creating phrases, making the dances. But I think what I didn't know going into Pippin, my first musical was the collaboration with designers, the scheduling, balancing with the music director, the director, and also just flat out communication.
Jessica
Hmm. Yeah.
Tuan
Up till that point, I had been pretty much choreographing on my friends versus professional dancers, and how do I communicate effectively ideas? So anyway, that was an amazing learning experience. That happened. And I kind of went back to auditioning after that. At this point, I had gained representation as an actor. So, you know, at that point, self-tapes were the only option. So that was kind of happening. I did Pippin. It was great. I came back to New York. Still, like, things were slowly returning. And I was kind of like, hmm, what's next? I was kind of just vibing and going with, like, the wave of life. And then an opportunity presented itself. Another professor from Ithaca, my alma mater, who had no longer been on faculty at Ithaca and has since moved to a different university, called me and said, Hey, I saw you choreographed a musical. I saw you did this mentorship.
We're looking for a guest choreographer for the Spongebob musical at this university. He now works at this university in Alabama, the University of Alabama at Birmingham, um, and I was like, Oh F yeah. So I went down there with one of my now like professional associates, the university had enough money to hire me and my associate. And to bring this full circle, BB Stone, my lovely associate for that project, was the person I co choreographed at the Midnight Cabaret with years ago.
Jessica
Aww.
Tuan
So she came down with me, we did Spongebob, we had an amazing time. And then after that, because I had already had experience working at universities, I started to get hired at other universities to choreograph shows. And in my head, I was always thinking, wow, this is really ideal because I'm still early career or was even more early career at the time. And like I was saying to you, I needed to flesh out a lot of things. I needed to, I mean, I always will, we're forever learning, but I needed to hone my creative voice. I needed to learn how to communicate, how to marry choreography with the concept of the director as well. And all of these moving parts, and I remember in my head thinking, what a perfect way to do it. Like at universities where students are also developing their craft, as opposed to diving into another regional theater job or even an off-Broadway thing, and I'm not ready for it because I wasn't able to hone, and then I'm hired to do something big, I wasn't ready…
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
and then I'm not hired again because now my reputation was solidified as I wasn't ready. So I thought, why not kind of take this opportunity to kind of go through universities around the country? One, I enjoy that and I enjoy community outreach and education as well. Like I was saying to you, I didn't really have a lot of resources as I was navigating auditioning for musical theater. So a lot of my work also is community outreach, accessibility. So going to universities and working with students was also a passion of mine, in addition to getting to flesh out my choreographic process. So I started to go to universities around the country, then came back to New York after doing a few of them. And now at this point, I'm like, I'm a choreographer. I'm a choreographer. But I did one more acting job in that time. I was in this production of Newsies, Casa Manana Theater, directed and choreographed by, at least in my opinion, the sweetest, brilliant, creative Parker Essie, who is just like literally the nicest human being ever. I'm bringing him up because he kind of plays into my journey and this, once again, dissertation of an answer I'm giving you.
Jessica
This is what we want here. We're hearing your story. This is your story.
Tuan
I'm like, I'm like, can I please hear Jessica talk? I feel like I've been talking for 20 minutes straight, but.
Jessica
No, this is fantastic. We'll get everywhere. Don't worry.
Tuan
So I did one more acting job at the time where I was in Newsies and I had been choreographing at universities. I come back to New York and then the reason I brought Parker up into this story is that Parker was then announced that he was choreographing the light in the piazza at New York City Center, directed by Chae Yoo, starring Ruthie N. Miles, centering Asian voices for this production that literally just happened. I, being a go-getter and having had a relationship with Parker, emailed him and basically, jokingly but not jokingly, begged to be in the room for the light in the piazza. And I was like, anything, like I'm sure you already have your network of associates, assistants, whatever, because at this point it was like four months until rehearsal started. Like I will, I need to be in this room. I need to soak everything up.
It happened. I remember he called me two weeks before rehearsals and he was like, hi, sorry. Cause he, there was a period of time where we were emailing and then it kind of dropped off, which is normal. And then he called me two weeks before and was like, hi, sorry. He was talking to general management, artistic director, the director, Che, and everyone has signed off and you can be the choreography observer. So basically I did that once again, just soaking up learning from people that I thought are masters of their craft and really soaking in knowledge and honing the art of choreography. And that happened and after that experience I was truly inspired with Che and Parker and once again because basically what happened with that production if we're bringing this full circle is what I was attempting to do way back with promises and come on everybody is re-examining musical theater
shows that are already in the musical theater canon, and who were they written for at the time, and how can we mold the story without necessarily changing text or songs? How do we make this story accessible or shine ne w light on it through centering marginalized voices? So I left that experience, which was literally last summer, and was just so like, yeah. And then, I basically have been choreographing ever since. This past fall, I choreographed at another university. I started to do more associate work. And I can't even believe I'm saying this because there's, as you're kind of sensing my choreographic journey, I jokingly call it like I'm a grassroots choreographer. I'm a people's choreographer, meaning that…
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
my trajectory was not, I don't really like this word, but normal or typical or the path that people take to become choreographers. It kind of started as this homemade grassroots passion project and now where we are sitting today, Jessica, like I, people are emailing me wanting to be being an associate to choreograph and it really is kind of unreal and I'm sure this will be a subset of the conversation, brings on a sense of imposter syndrome, but kind of is this beautiful, messy journey of finding one's path and the journey to self-expression. And I've kind of owned that I'm not the classic. I grew up dancing, I went to competition, I was in seven Broadway shows, I became an associate and now I'm choreographing. Which once again, not invalidating that, please. Like sometimes I'm like, can't my journey be a little bit more formulaic? But the journey that I have is just so specific to me and has taken me a long time to own.
So this is such a long-winded answer. I think I also went off on a tangent because you and I are not familiar of each other and kind of giving you all of these givens will inform our conversation. But that is kind of how, to be intentional and bring it back to your initial question, that is kind of how I fell into choreography not having a lot of training, a lot of dance training. So.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
Huh. I literally winded from speaking, but there you have it.
Jessica
No, this is what I love. I don't need to ask a question and get some straightforward answer in five to eight sentences. I want it to be open and like we said at the beginning, just see where the wind takes us. And if it takes us on a two hour dissertation, that's what I want because it's what is meant to happen right then. There's no rules. There are no rules here. And I do think that when you can kind of go and just express the whole story, you need to take these tangents because it isn't straightforward. And I think that is really important in storytelling. And as we were talking, you have listened to Yancy's episode and I think we talked about it in the episode that we started the first time we talked. She was like, I go all over the place and I'm really sorry. And I'm like, no, I go all over the place. So we're going to get along really well because I think that's important.
Oh, this thing makes me think of this and it's all part of your story and who you are. And also the way you share your story is who you are. So if there are tangents, there are tangents for me all the time. And that's what I want. I want a space where you feel like you can just open up and say everything that you said, because now I'm better for it. And like you're saying now I know where to go even more. So first of all, thank you for sharing all of that. I do have many questions, as you might imagine. But I want to first tackle when you brought up imposter syndrome, because where are you feeling with that right now? So you're in a spot where you're like, okay, I am a choreographer. I'm getting these opportunities coming in. What does imposter syndrome mean to you? And how do you feel about it in this moment right now?
Tuan
That's a great question. I think for me, imposter syndrome, how I experience it is this feeling of feeling that I am not qualified, that I don't know what I'm doing. No one can see me, I'm doing quotations with my hands right now. This feeling of, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm not qualified, but people think I am and people are gonna find out that I'm a fraud…
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
That I've been like tricking and fooling everybody in this industry that I actually am good at my craft. And some of that imposter syndrome stems from in the way I choreograph, I don't choreograph on my own body. I'm not one, everyone has a different process. Some people improvise in the mirror and they create these brilliant, beautiful phrases. Could not be me. And I think part of that is because I also have, and I can...proudly admit this, a more limited skill set. So frankly, if I was to choreograph on my body, it would really be the same set of moves over and over. But I think for me, choreographing on others and being able to step back and edit the work and not be engaging with it as a performance artist, performance art, that I'm finding is my process, which leads into… often when I'm choreographing, there are phrases of choreography I literally cannot do, that I cannot execute. And I think that also fuels an insecurity of, okay, well, like, I can't do it. And all these dancers are watching me, all these dancers that have decades more experience than me.
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
And even as like you were saying, imposter syndrome as a choreographer but as an associate. Often as an associate you are asked to demonstrate choreography and for some associates that's probably their favorite part, best part of the job. For me I'm like oh gosh like here we go like push comes to shove like now I have to like move my body and…Well, first of all, I'm sure to some degree, I will always have imposter syndrome. In some facet, it will find its way into my headspace. But I think what helps me...breathe and center myself and honestly lean into it is that… there is no one way of doing things. And there is no one way to get somewhere. And other creatives to some degree, are also figuring it out.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And I think...The imposter syndrome that I was experiencing going back to like, Oh, I'm not qualified. I don't know what I'm doing. Yes. There's always an element of the unknown and the exploration of the unknown and this feeling of I'm free falling and trying to grasp on, and I don't know what's next, but I think they're. What calms me is this feeling of knowing the difference of yes, there will always be an element of not knowing. But as a choreographer, as, as an individual artist, I do have a toolbox to pull from.
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
There's an anchor, there is craft, which is what I can rely on. The extraneous factors are gonna be what they're gonna be. But I think what relaxes me is that, no, like looking at a toolbox, I do quote unquote know what I'm doing to some degree. Once again, aren't we always guessing and always figuring it out? But there's a difference between informed guessing, and guessing, which I think comes, I think in my head, my brain was trying to trick myself that I was guessing, as opposed to an informed guessing of studying and training and really pushing myself to further my craft. So now I walk into rooms and I'm like, oh gosh, am I really, like, what am I doing? But also allowing, like I said, leaning into it and really owning the humanity of that. Like there will be times I will say out loud, I'm not quite sure. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. Or even, sometimes I'll go as far and maybe it's part of my candor and my bluntness, but I'll just be like, oh gosh, I'm feeling insecure about this.
But I think that act of letting go then opens my vessel and imagination to the actual possibilities. And like, getting through the insecurities to get to the work, as opposed to letting this subconscious inner ego of I can't let people know that I'm insecure. I can't let people know that I don't know what I'm doing. But leaning in and being honest relieves them that pressure and that outward mask of…
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
I'm a brilliant creative and it reveals that I am a human being that likes to engage with art and is figuring it out. So that's kind of where I'm at currently with when I have those feelings of major insecurity and doubt, of kind of saying to myself, well, that's how I feel and it's honest. So let's go there. Let's lean in. Instead of trying to, it's like acting 101, don't push down your impulses, but it's truly this as a creative, okay, I'm feeling this way.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And I think it's also just as a culture, it's like we are all conditioned to think leaders need to be a certain way, or that people that are strong leaders, like act a certain way, or that more introverted people or quiet people cannot be strong leaders. Like we are conditioned to think in certain ways. And I think part of that is unlearning myself. A strong leader can admit when they don't know, a strong leader can admit when they are insecure and still get the job done.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
Because I think that's, if we're looking at it commercially, when there's money on the line, I think a lot of people are like, well, we want someone who anytime we ask a question, there is an answer. And like, they are so, they speak with conviction and they know exactly what they're looking for. But I think there are many different ways to lead. There are many different ways to create, to be an associate and...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
It really, the imposter syndrome, and this is a slight different conversation, but once again, in the theme of allowing myself to go there, let's go there, which is, to me, imposter syndrome also has a subset. And once again, I want to speak in the I for me of comparison. This idea of, I'm an imposter because I feel person A actually knows what they're doing, or person B…
Jessica
Yes.
Tuan
They have a Tony as a choreographer, so they know what they're doing. But it's really just relieving comparison as well for me in the imposter syndrome. It's like what I feel is insecure about my craft if I didn't know about a hundred other people and where they are in their journey, probably not as much. And like I said to you a couple of minutes ago, this idea that the imposter syndrome, I think will always be there.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
And Viola Davis does an interview where she speaks on, it should be there to some degree. Artists should have a level of awareness. And I say this as a joke, but I'm like, if I ever get to the point where I have no insecurities, little delulu. Like I would be a little nervous for myself in terms of the humanity and the awareness and the artistry. But I think part of that for me is, how do I deal with these feelings now? Because if I ever am a Broadway choreographer, those feelings aren't gonna go away. And I think that's just the lesson of, and I think it's this culture and my generation too, of this, well, when I'm there, when I'm doing this, I'll feel this way. Or when I'm in this building, like when I'm on Broadway, or when I'm, insert anything really, when I have a Tony, when I've choreographed three Broadway shows, then I'll feel secure. But it's this,
Jessica
Yeah.
Tuan
real sitting down with yourself and investigation of well…the tangible thing probably isn't going to be a cure-all of my emotions. And part of letting go of the comparison and the imposter syndrome for me is this, like I was mentioning, return to the toolbox and the craft. I like, I'm like slightly rolling my eyes because it seems very like, oh, a craft. But for me, it is this like, I have just as much fun choreographing in the basement of New York City Center, as much as I have choreographing at an Equity Regional Theater for a thousand dollars a week. Meaning that for me, the work is the work. And whether I'm choreographing the opening number of the Tonys or I'm choreographing for a benefit for the Trevor Project, the excitement for the work is there.
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
And I think for me, that is what helps me release comparison and release this idea that, well, when I am doing what I think I want to be doing, that suddenly I'll wake up every morning and love myself and be secure. But it really is this lifelong journey of exploring oneself and inner work that, like I said, I'm kind of. leaning into. I want to say this before I forget, and this has kind of been a theme of everything thus far. Ocean Vuong, a Vietnamese queer writer and poet, did this interview on YouTube where he says, oh, if we only follow what's on the GPS, then we're navigating a map and we type in a location that already exists, then we're only gonna go to things that have already existed. But if we turn the GPS off and explore, we'll go off the road, we'll find uncharted territory and to me, it is one of the most beautiful metaphors of putting it. And I think especially in commercial musical theater, like I'm in a very artistic mood recently.
I've been watching a lot of Julie Taymor interviews. Don't ask how this all began, but it got me thinking this idea of what Ocean's saying in relation to theater, which is, I feel like a lot of commercial theater, and obviously there's factors, COVID, money, theater being revitalized again, but this sense of, well, let's give the people what we think they want. Or let's do something that we know works and has worked following the GPS, following the cookbook recipe. But like I was saying, what we don't see is the chef, how they got to that brilliant recipe, which was adding a little bit more flour. No, that didn't work. Try it again. Add a little bit more salt.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
we see the final product. And like any artist, even like Fosse, Michael Bennett, we see that end product. And we're like, that was brilliant. We don't know how they got there. I'm sure there was trial and error. And I hope for theater and this art form commercially, we create space for artists to go off that roadmap more and not feel like, okay, well, we know what works. We know this formula works for a show. We know this source material is popular, but what happens if we explore uncharted territory and fall off the bike?
Like I was saying, that metaphor I used at the beginning, what if we allow ourselves to get back to that sense of trial and error? And once again, error, like it's like the scariest word when there's money and time on the line. But to me, to truly be creative and think outside the box and to not abide by a formula, it requires exploration. Like literally more times than not do I choreograph, spend hours or an hour choreographing something and I end up scrapping it all. But it wasn't all for nothing. It informs then how I move forward and the, oh, that didn't work. I'm a firm believer in, I don't know if it works until I see it. One of my very dear colleagues, he more is a creative that is kind of like...
I picture it all in my head and I kind of edit in my head and then I don't really set it on people until it's exactly what I want. Which once again, I wish. I feel like I'm so messy when I work and it really is a thing of like, let's try this. We try it and I'm like, okay, not quite. And then I go back to the drawing board. I'm gonna stop myself because I'm slightly getting a little bit off topic from imposter syndrome but I wanted to say that quote by Ocean before I forget because I think that's kind of this like overriding theme of what I didn't even know I would be talking about, which is this sense of unknowing and exploration of the craft.
Jessica
I don't think you're getting off topic at all because imposter syndrome is deeply connected to that constant struggle we have between being completely artistically able to do whatever we want and capitalism.
Tuan
Hmm.
Jessica
Because if you didn't have the pressures of the financial burdens and the requirements of whoever is hiring you to do this job and you could just explore and you had the time and space to really go there, then you wouldn't, I'm sure our imposter syndrome, would maybe just go away potentially because if we could just celebrate artists for who they are and what they have to offer period rather than, you know, what are you going to bring in for me financially and what's the product that we're going to receive, then...
Tuan
Hmm.
Jessica
that I think it's completely interconnected actually. And it made me think, when you were talking about, you don't consider yourself able to dance in the way that you would choreograph, just made me think about all of the different expectations that we have of ourselves. And you would never look at
Tuan
Hmm.
Jessica
um Spielberg and be like why aren't you acting in this film right like he doesn't have to do that we don't have that expectation because you have the history of dance and acting and these things that so there's that connection to it because you've been in those rooms you've been to those auditions on those stages all of that stuff so you have a different tie to it of course
Tuan
Very true. Hmm.
Jessica
But the thing is that what makes you who you are as an artist, what makes you able to choreograph in the way that you can and be an amazing associate and be an amazing actor is because of all of who you are. It's because of the fact that you can tap into all these different areas and these different crafts. Not everyone can do that. So some people that you're choreographing on probably feel like, well, fuck, I can't choreograph like that. I can just dance like this. And so it does connect with the comparison game and not being able to just sit and celebrate what you have to offer and who you are and what you want to do, not just what you're capable of doing, but like what do you actually want to do?
So if you, I'm sure a lot of imposter syndrome comes from like, well, I want to do this thing and I don't think I'm capable of it. And that's a whole other story. But in terms of like where you are in a given moment, I watched so many of your videos. First of all, I have to just say that there's so many brilliant videos on there and I hope this is okay to say, I was obsessed with the Fairly OddParents one, okay?
Tuan
Ah! Oh my god.
Jessica
I have to ask you because I'm sure, I feel like you probably have a feeling about that. Like, I'm sure you hear that, but I watched it on your website and I had seen it on Instagram. It was like going around at some point. And I...
Tuan
That's totally it.
Jessica
Now I'm going off on a tangent because the way that you match something that is so nostalgic and feels like home and so cozy with such fun movement for me as someone who has so much trauma surrounding movement and surrounding dance and creating to see something that was just fun and connected to this it's connected to something from my past and in a way that was really intentional and brilliantly made, it wasn't whatever, was just so beautiful for me to see. And I know I'm the one who went off on the tangent there. And I have to know what your response is to that because I see a big reaction.
Tuan
I'm laughing if you can't see me because, well, first of all, those are very kind words. And I'm laughing because as I mentioned earlier, I have gone to a lot of universities to choreograph shows where the students are TikTok. They live for it. They know who, if you're not familiar, I choreographed this phrase to a combination combo to Fairly Odd Parents starring JJ Nieman Tuan who is a friend of mine, we had done summer stock together in 2015. We've known each other, I knew him like pre-TikTok. Anyway, point is, JJ Neiman has an extremely large TikTok following of the age demographic, where a lot of these kids at universities that I have choreographed at had seen the video not knowing that was choreographed by me, hence me laughing that you brought it up and that, it kind of has been following me to this day in the best way I own it. I mean, I jokingly say like, I can't listen to that song ever anymore because I'm like. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
Well, I had it stuck in my head all morning. I was like, Timmy is an average kid. But also, there you go.
Tuan
I was just going to say that it's so funny because how that happened was that I turned on the song and I thought, oh my gosh, this is, like you're saying, nostalgic. But then only having watched it when I was younger, listening to it as an adult, I was thinking, wow, this orchestration is rich. It's jazz. There's horns, there's brass. Suddenly I'm listening to it in a different way being older. That it isn't just the theme song that this was like really well written and that the orchestrations were and I keep saying orchestrations and I think that ties into my training as a flutist that I am listening to instruments and kind of the choreography that they do in pieces like but it kind of was very nostalgic and it's one of the only things choreographically shockingly enough despite all of this talk about process and editing and like it was one of those things where I got into a studio
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
with them and joked. And I was like, what if we did this? What if we did this? Wouldn't that be funny? Like that's ridiculous. Cut to the combo was made. It was almost, it was the quickest I had ever choreographed something. Because I just was like, this is for shits. And to be honest, because I had known JJ for several years before that, I kind of forgot in the back of my head that if he was to film this and post it, that a lot of people would see it. Like genuinely, that kind of, that was once again, being someone that enjoys the art of creation and being process-based, I genuinely was not like, ooh, JJ has a million followers on TikTok and I'm gonna want him to dance this and post this. I picked JJ because JJ is so brilliant and animated. JJ is such an animated, expressive dancer.
And I thought that he would just really come alive and do the choreography that is based on an animated TV show so well. But I'm laughing because to be honest, I mean, I guess it's the lesson though, even like in commercial musical theater, I'm sure there's sometimes creative sit in the theater during tech being like, this is gonna be brilliant. And then it flops or it's the opposite. And you're like, I don't know if this is gonna work. And it's like wicked. And then it's a smash hit. Like it kind of thing where I just, and I think for the better, I wasn't concerned on how is this gonna be perceived. It was just kind of like this one thing I did with the friends. But now when you brought it up and when many people bring it up, I like smirk a little because it really was just fun. And I mean, what a beautiful thing that it was just that. But I'm so happy that, cause that's how I felt making it. It was nostalgic, it was fun, it was freeing. And I'm happy to hear that that's how other people feel or felt watching it.
Jessica
Yeah, that's so important, especially as we're talking about making money, doing what we're doing and being in this industry, to be able to watch something and say and, and I've talked about this on the podcast, just like my disconnect with dance and how fear, afraid I feel to get back in a studio, let alone like a job and all of that. And so when I watch something and I go, Oh, that would be fun for me to do…that's also a gift because that doesn't happen to me personally very often. And so also, I mean, it's not just that for you. I watched your rent and I was like, oh, I would love to be in that rent. There are these different, it's not just that. That one stood out to me because what you're saying, it was one person in a room with joy. And sometimes it needs to be that simple. And we deserve it to be that simple sometimes. And actually it's not that simple. That is not simple.
Tuan
Fair.
Jessica
It is not simple to go into a studio and just have joy and say, oh, what if we throw this into the mix? What if we do this? And I hope this encourages both of us and anybody listening to keep moving forward in that direction. Not everything has to be so serious. Life is serious enough, okay? And there's important art that needs to be made with serious intention, of course. And sometimes we need to...
Tuan
Hmm. Totally.
Jessica
Activate that part of ourselves that is just alive and then it's just joyful and that can let go for two minutes of watching Or 30 minutes of dancing or whatever it is. That's really important right now and always
Tuan
Hmm. Absolutely.
Jessica
What is a piece of choreography for you that means something to you that you feel like represents who you are and what you do as an artist?
Tuan
That is such a good question. And I genuinely mean that because as someone who has to quote unquote, audition for choreography jobs and submit videos, sometimes I often struggle with like, which one am I going to, which thing do I feel like represents me and I will get more specific. I promise this isn't a cop out answer. I'm not going to say all of them, but I am going to say that they do represent. They do each represent something different.
Jessica
You can say whatever you want.
Tuan
And I think also for me, I try to not get locked into a certain style. Or I think overall there is a through line of aesthetic because it's being filtered through my lens. Of course, there is a connecting tissue of all of my work, but they each kind of reveal something different about my inner being. For me,
Jessica
Yeah.
Tuan
And I'll just flat out say, and I'm not trying to dismiss myself for the work, what I'm about to say, the piece I'm about to say is frankly, I know it's not my best work choreographically, whatever that means. Once again, that's my own what I think. But it is a piece that I choreographed for Leg Up on Life's Night of Life. It was a benefit for the Trevor Project. The piece I presented was last summer. And it was about my mental health and kind of my struggle with voices in my head and my mental health. But the song itself, one would expect it to be very slow and dramatic. And the piece was very bright. It was to the score of Us Again, which was a Disney short. And the music is very animated and very silly at times and quirky, which is very much me and it's very much who I am. But it was also implementing kind of, well, one, what is that? And two, what is that when you lift the curtain for myself? People see my work, a lot of it is fun and exciting, but who is that human behind the art and the work? And I felt personally like, although maybe like looking at it, like in terms of like literally like,
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
Formations, pictures, stage pictures, silhouettes, choreography, like I'm like, that's not really my strongest work, but I feel like it was really connected to my personal experience. And I remember, cause the piece was presented live, a lot of my other stuff that's not for musicals is recorded and presented on film. This piece was presented live and I remember the night that I was in the audience watching, I almost, I turned to my associate, Bibi, and I said to her, I think I'm gonna leave before the piece starts, because I was like sick to my stomach at the idea of people watching this in real time. The beauty of a lot of my stuff being on film is that people can watch it at home, they can judge it if they want, they can love it if they want, but I don't have to witness that happen in real time.
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
Seeing it live and seeing the audience watch it live was truly so vulnerable to the point where I felt ill. I truly was like, I feel ill at the sight of people engaging with my work in real time. But she, being my friend and associate, Bibi, convinced me to stay, obviously. She was like, Tuan, this is like, you have to watch this. You're gonna regret it if you don't. So of course I stayed. I was sweating. I was ill…figuratively. But to me, that piece is something where I am extremely proud of and I feel like it represents a part of me that truly is messy and complex and didn't really have a solid through line and like wasn't as palatable or digestible as some of maybe my other stuff. And for that reason, I would say that specific piece, there's no title for it, ironically, despite me speaking so actually about it. We never came up with the title, but it would be that specific piece from that benefit last year.
Jessica
Thank you for sharing that. Would you care at all to touch upon how your mental health is now and what your journey has been?
Tuan
Absolutely. I have been someone for a long time all through college too that has been very open about my mental health and kind of I'm in therapy and that it is something that affects sometimes day to day, sometimes not. Like once again, a very not black and white thing. It's a balance. Like I think at this point due to resources and being in therapy and having health insurance and resources that right now I feel, there were days where it used to be like years ago where I'd wake up every morning and like not know how I was gonna feel mentally. And I think I've gotten to the point luckily where it's more stable in that way that I feel like I can kind of gauge where I am, but to tie it back to being an artist and kind of how that influences the work and myself. Like I am someone that, I have choreographed shows professionally where I have been very open and said to the stage manager and higher ups like, hey, I actually need a mental health day or half a day and I will be more productive if I come in after lunch. Or if can, hey, can, speaking to the director here, like, hey, can you do scene work today?
Can we switch today and tomorrow and do the big number tomorrow, I need to stay at home. Once again, not often, but I allow that for myself and allow, I allow it to be. I feel also that I, as a leader, once again, going back to expectations of leaders, I think sometimes there's an expectation of a leader every day speaks with conviction as and is inspired and smiles and makes everyone feel amazing. And yes, a leader should create space where people feel like they can do their best work. However, leaders are not robots. I mean, I think we also, you know, there's so many memes and TikToks about politicians. And I think that's part of that, too, which is like part of the facade of a politician is like, oh, hello, hey, everybody, haha. And it's like it's like funny to us because we know nobody is actually like that. Like, and anyway, so.
I feel like on a smaller scale, directors and choreographers, there's an expectation that we are the anchor, the lighthouse in this ocean to the production. And yes, once again, in a sense, of course, but we are also human beings that live on this sliding scale and have personal things that actors, designers, other people may not be aware of. Because once again, I'm all for boundaries. I think a lot of times in this art form, and it's not, it's shifting as it should, but I feel like there was the sense of, we're all artists and it's vulnerable, in which it is, but because of that, there's the sense of, there's no boundaries, I'm gonna ask you about anything. I mean, obviously in acting and the dance community, it's like, let's push you so far. But it's like, I'm all for boundaries. Meaning that when I say I need a mental health day, I'm not disclosing what it is I'm dealing with. Like I have that boundary. And I also think it's once again, that releasing and unlearning that expectation of, oh, in order for them to genuinely believe me, I need to tell them exactly what it is.
Jessica
And it better be big enough for them to think it's worthy of a day off.
Tuan
Exactly. And I think for me, just disclosing like, Hi, I am because once again, like, technically, mental health is health. Very much like physical health, I don't have to disclose, you know, necessarily exactly what it is. But that being said, I am open enough to share that I may be struggling and that may influence.how I come to work, how I'm able to engage at work. But I think for me, setting boundaries is a way that has...eased the anxiety side of my mental health. Because obviously mental health is such a wide umbrella. Because I was before kind of speaking to more like disorders and mental sort of things versus like general anxiety of being in this industry where setting boundaries for me I have found has been helpful.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
an associate or even the choreographer of like 10 to 6 y'all at 6 at 7pm I'm not going to like email be an unless it's like truly like it needs to happen and with consent I have agreed to engage but it's like I do want to find a work home personal balance. As you can gather I am like extremely passionate. I can admit that I ooze theater, I live and breathe it, but at some point y'all it's like I don't want to think about it. I want to go home, watch Gordon Ramsay, go out with friends, do things. Like I have, although I live and breathe theater, other things do fulfill me. And meaning though that boundaries are helpful for me to kind of be less anxious about work and the work we're doing and also boundaries soothe and give me a sense of agency. Where I think a lot of anxiety for me is the, and it's so toxic and I'm going to laugh saying it because it's like giving Abby Lee Miller, but it's like the everyone's replaceable kind of thing. And the scarcity mindset of this line of work of, well, as we all know, we're not always working. So when you are, you better shut up and be grateful.
Jessica
Hmm.
Tuan
and not say anything. And to me, that's anxiety ridden. And also just doing jobs. Leading with fear is a recipe for disaster. Even as an associate, right? I want the choreographer to like me. Am I doing my job? It is a job and I'm passionate about it and I would give a lot to do it, but I'm going to stick by my moral compass, my boundaries and this segues into mental health as well. And I am very open about talking about this. I have quit jobs as a choreographer twice in my career due to the strain on my mental health because of admin, artistic staff. Once again, one of my boundaries is I obviously won't disclose and also just for the sake of this podcast, who and where, that's irrelevant to my point, but it's more so that.
A boundary of mine is saying no, the ability to allow myself to say no and to say, hey, this is getting to the point where it is affecting how I come to work. Like the jobs that I am referring to that I quit, I would come into work feeling mentally unsafe. Like where it would affect me doing my job. And obviously when I, I'm talking about that I've quit jobs here. There's a lot of factors. The jobs that I have quit, both those jobs work a year apart, but in between those jobs, I had worked a lot of jobs, meaning that I had the financial privilege that I was able to quit those jobs and not totally be out for the count. I want to acknowledge that because of that privilege of myself, of having, I came off of several theater jobs and was able to then, anyway, I just wanted to disclose that it's not like, I'm out here just quitting jobs willy nilly.
Jessica
Yeah, that's great.
Tuan
without acknowledging maybe why people do not, you know. So anyway, the jobs that I quit, the two ones in my career were due to the fact that I just felt mentally harmed. And it was due to, one could guess, racism, gender phobia...
Jessica
Right.
Tuan
upholding unintentionally white supremacist ways of thinking that are used to box people in. And as we know, like, and we and, you know, even something like misogyny, misogyny harms men, upholding white supremacy at the end of day harms, like, it's, it's not helpful to anyone to uphold these kinds of things. Like, meaning in some of these jobs that I quit, I was deemed aggressive or that I created a toxic work environment because I was bringing attention to actual toxicity. But then I was deemed that I was a toxic person or that I was bringing attention to things that would make the work environment a more equitable space. And not just for me, for others as well. And
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
these two specific instances, clearly they didn't wanna hear it. And then we're spinning it that I was a horrible person and that I was someone that stirred the pot, like, so to speak. And we haven't really talked about this part, but I am very much someone that, like, look. I came from, I grew up in Buffalo, New York. There were like horses down the street from me. I grew up with nature. My family is very kind and nice and has a high moral compass. And I remember moving to New York and being like, I'm a city person, like F my past. Like I am now this like unbreakable rock-solid city person that's rude and mean. And as I've grown older, at the end of the day, I'm still that small town kid, in a good way. Like that I abide by my moral compass and I'm not going to play the game or be complacent in the system to get where I want to be.
Meaning that I do not put up with racism, homophobia, like, I mean, especially as a creative, like I'm speaking as a creative, I haven't really, as I've slowly started to not act as often anymore, I haven't been in an experience like that, and I think it's because I'm also a creative, I feel a little bit more agency to speak up, that I will bring attention to things.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
and question the theater-making models that have been in place. And when I say theater-making models, I mean the kind of rules and things that are unspoken that people say, well, we've always done it this way. And it's like, well, who made that up and who was that for? Like, who did that serve, really? And I say this all the time, that...going back to that initial, when I was talking about during COVID and regional theaters were looking to expand their roster of creative team members, to me, because I think the D word, diversity, has been thrown out a lot, which as we know is just diversifying cast, creative teams, whatever. But the real word for me is the like of DEI is the equity and inclusion part, which is like bringing marginalized people, women, people of color, queer people, trans people, non-binary people, into the workspace. That's diversity. But as we know, just bringing them into the workspace is not enough because people, because the system was not originally intended to support them, whether people want to admit that or not, which means we, I'm saying that as the collective we of marginalized people, feel get harmed.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
me having to quit, et cetera. The EI, the equity and inclusion portion comes from providing the marginalized people resources to do their job, to come to work and do their job as cis straight white people can without all the extraneous factors of, oh, maybe Tuan's coming off a little bit more cold today because two minutes ago, someone said something extremely racist and that triggered them versus a white, cis straight person not having to deal with that. And they're like, well, Tuan's hard to work with. Like that's, it's that kind of thing of like coming in with the understanding that we do not all come from the same experiences and that we all have things that influence how we navigate the world. And that people that are marginalized have, are trying to exist in systems and spaces that were meant to oppress them.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Tuan
way back, like, you know, and that, that kind of thinking isn't actually helpful, obviously, like no shit, but it's not beneficial. And the reason I bring this rather serious, and I'm very passionate about this topic up is it ties to mental health. It ties with one's ability to come to work and to do their job. Because here's the thing, I always say this.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
I can talk about inclusion, equity, race, gender, queerness, till literally all day, every day. But at the end of the day, I am a theater artist. That's what I want to come to work to do. I am not a trained or paid DEI consultant. And as we know, I feel like a lot of times in these workplaces, sometimes producers or directors hire a marginalized choreographer or creative team member and then they become the spokesperson.
Jessica
Right.
Tuan
for everything related to that, where it's like, can we go back to my contract for a second? And I mean, not to like split hairs, but it says choreographer. And also I always like to say, I'm actually not trained to be a DEI. Like, why are you, like at the end of the day, yeah, I'm a person of color. Yeah, I'm queer. Yeah, I'm non-binary. I have no training. It's not like I have my doctorate in gender studies. Like I frankly am not qualified. Like yeah, maybe I'm a little bit more qualified than a straight cis white man.
Jessica
Yes.
Tuan
to speak on some of these things, but I'm actually not, just because of my identities does not make me an expert in that specific craft. My craft is choreography.
Jessica
Yeah. Unless you wanna add on to my contract and pay me more money and let that be something that I'm responsible for and get paid really well to do and I sign on to do this, other than that, fuck no. But that's the expectation.
Tuan
And like what you just said, yes, and what you just said brings us back to boundaries, which is that ability to say no of like, I am not the go-to person for this specific topic, despite what you might think. But my mental health in terms of like the anxiety side is very much influenced by, I don't know why I'm hesitating, I've already said it, white supremacy. And like the small ways or big ways it has trickled into the everyday way of living. And as an industry, once again, I mean, I don't wanna say this as an industry as a whole, but like depending on the space you're in, things have starting to progress. I'm laughing because I'm like, I'm picking my words here a little bit,
My mental health is very influenced by white supremacy ideologies that have trickled its way into the workplace. Like for example, for me personally, because once again I want to always speak for myself, being a person of color, non-binary, it's not a monolith, I can never speak for everybody, duh. But for me that I've wrestled with choreography and dance calls, being ableist. in the and not only the ableism in like everyone do the choreography, but also the mental ableism of pickup and pickup skills and that people don't like everyone learns differently and I am still early career and have not led too many dance calls but in the ones that I do my associate always will be in the corner marking it through the entire call, even when we divide into small groups, and I will say something like, hey, in the callback, we may revisit this, and my associate will not be doing it, giving them warning and a fairness of we have taught it and you have days to sit on it. We will review it at the beginning of the callback, but we would like to see this at some point without someone doing it.
Jessica
Thank you. Mm-hmm.
Tuan
But the idea of in an OG call right then and there to learn something and perform it. and have that be a factor. Like once again, because I know someone listening that maybe does not in the same wavelength as me may argue like, well, Tuan, like that's part of the bit. It's always one, it's always been done that way. And two, this element of, well, time is money. We need people to pick up fast because we put the show together in 12 days or one month. Or Tuan, well, what if it's a new show and phrases are changing? We need people that can handle that. Like, I would argue though, an audition, no matter what, is not like the rehearsal process. Like, yes, of course, you're moving quickly. But it's never like, here's a phrase, now have at it four at a time, isolated, vulnerable by yourself with no one helping you. Like, because for me, it's like, I would rather see, I would rather my associate Mark it in the corner and then see people come alive.
and engage and really let go. Cause that gives me what I need to see, not necessarily like, oh, that person forgot something. And also like, dare I say, and I'm just gonna say it, and other choreographers may not want to admit this, the actual act of auditioning is actually unfair anyway, because let's be real, in a group of four dancing, Jessica, like if you were, there are times I wouldn't be looking at you.
Jessica
Hmm. Right.
Tuan
Like, because what if you forget it when I'm not looking at you, but then I look back and think you know, versus I hold it against someone else when I'm looking at them, that they forgot one thing. It's like, unless it's literally a self tape, like, if I'm alive, I'm bound, I'm a human being also as a choreographer. So like, I can't actually see everybody at every given moment. So even that element is unfair, which is if I just happen by happenstance to see someone forget something versus.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
when I look at someone else, let's say they forgot the rest of the combo, but I didn't even see. Like even that to me is already not equitable. So I've been trying to unlearn and put into my practice, like in an initial dance call, my associate like will be marking every small group. Like, because at least for me and what I value when looking for dancers and artists to collaborate with, to me that outweighs pickup. And once again, I keep emphasizing for me, because I do want to acknowledge that everyone, choreographers value different things. So I'm genuinely not trying to totally like dismiss why people sit down and there's no one like marking it with you. Like, but for me personally, I find it ableist.
Jessica
I appreciate you bringing that up so much for many reasons. Number one, I had a dream last night where I was rushing to get on stage and I didn't know the choreography. And that's a dream I have all the time to this day. And I'm not even dancing right now, like all the time. And I was talking about it with my therapist right before we signed on for this very podcast. And I was saying that it's so wild how that anxiety of not knowing something and being called out for it or so when noticing that you don't know it or whatever it is, whether it is an audition or a performance is so ingrained in me still that not only does it prevent me from taking class, but it gives me nightmares. Still to this day, it's so, I mean, it's a kind of a silly thing to say, but it deeply impacts you for a long time. And I think that's a really true point. You know, if you're going in and you have one week to learn an entire show and you have to go whatever that might be you might have particular circumstances where this is the only thing that matters is that you can learn this by tomorrow. That's the only thing that matters. Okay, fine. Fine. I'll take it.
Tuan
Hmm. Right, right.
Jessica
But you're it's so true that it's an unnecessary anxiety and also it prevents you potentially from seeing magical performers who might take a little more time to come alive or might just need a little more support or might just be really anxious in an audition setting and then as soon as you give them one chance they're okay.
Tuan
Exactly.
Jessica
So I really respect and appreciate you calling that out and for doing the work that you're doing by having your associate go in and mark it. Let that person come to life exactly what you said. I love the way you put that.
Tuan
I have one more thing to add, because I just thought of this myself, which is like, because I'm thinking if other choreographers are listening and they're like, well, what's other alternatives? Like, because also I want to acknowledge, let's say you're choreographing at a smaller regional theater that they can't afford to hire you an associate to be with you at the audition. Another thing could be, because actually this has happened to me where they have sent a video version of the dance call beforehand and have said, learn it and then come in and you're going to do it. So if for some reason you're a choreographer that's obsessed or like you're saying, it might be vital.
Jessica
Right.
Tuan
Pickup might be vital and we can't ignore that at some point, but also to your point, usually if it's that vital, they'll be explicit about that in the breakdown of like, it's a very quick turn on time, meaning then the person can consent to going to the audition knowing that it's gonna be very fast paced. Anyway, to my point though, which is, if a choreographer is like, well, what if I, what do I do if I don't have an associate? There's another option, which is give them the video version, have them come in and tag on one or two eight counts.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Right.
Tuan
instead of a six, eight count. Like there's other options too, where it's like, if you need to see pickup, like have, like do a video, have them all learn the bulk of the combo, but tag on an eight count or two at the tail end versus like it's seven, eight, eight count combo on the fly. Like I think there's other alternatives, but I think like we've the through, another through line of this conversation has been people not questioning why we do things because it's how it's quote unquote always been done. And not having other systems in place to explore. Once again, no one wants to go off the GPS. Like everyone wants to stick to how it's been done and what they know works and how dance calls are done. And for me, it's like, well, let's try something different. I mean, cause also, sorry, I'm full of hot takes today. Here's another one for you.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Love it.
Tuan
I actually believe, unless, once again, unless the length of the combo is a reflection of what the rehearsal process is going to be, a good choreographer can choreograph a three eight count choreograph, like combo. And if they choreograph it well enough, can get what they need versus a seven eight count combo, which has repeating phrases or is redundant. Once again, I want to acknowledge if it, if a longer combo is pertinent.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
and a reflection of what the rehearsal process might be. Yes. But if it's a thing where it's like, it's long for long sake, like for me, it's like, I can see within, I know this is so cliche, you can see immediately in the first couple of seconds, you can kind of get the vibe. And like, sometimes I don't need to see someone do a double pirouette to know that they can engage their core and be on their leg. It’s about once again,
for me, creativity and using the toolbox, which is my lens and my eye to spot, and I'm gonna be careful with how I say this because I'm gonna follow this up with one more hot take, like to spot quote unquote technique. And the reason I say quote unquote, and you're smiling and nodding because I think you might know where I'm headed with this, which is that a lot of times in musical theater,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
When someone's like, yes, work, you have tech, you have amazing technique, we are referring to European, white centric jazz and ballet technique, which is not the end of be all part of a lot of my work that I do. You literally like part of my work and like you acknowledge when I choreographed Rent, I was it was at a university was at Texas State University. Love them. And I remember walking in and saying, I want you all to know that we can create
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Say it again!
Tuan
moving choreography without battements and turns and leaps. Once again, not dismissing those. Have I choreographed? You could go on my page and see that I have done turns and leaps and things. I'm not dismissing that. But this tangent I'm going on about technique though is this sense of…Oh my gosh, like, yes, like work, triple pirouette, huge, like, fantastic jazz ballet technique. But I just, it really, going back to the like trickling of white supremacy of this idea that we hold to the highest standard, European, Westernized ballet and jazz, hip hop has a technique. Tap has a technique. Every style of dance has its own set of technique, but in musical theater, because like it was built, who it was built upon and who were the early choreographers and jazz choreographers that took from black artists. Like it has become this, and once again, it's nothing as you know, for sure all, but in many situations, when people say technique, unknowingly in our heads, we jump to ballet and jazz technique. Just wanted to throw that in there.
Jessica
I appreciate that. I second that 100%. I think to summarize everything we've been talking about is a request for people to act with intention, whether you are, especially if you are a leader in a room, because whether we circle back to the conversation about how you requested to take a day off or switch with the director, oh, I would appreciate if we could do this. I mean, the more we do that and normalize that, the more the next person has that courage to stand up and set their own boundaries and make their own requests. And it'll just create a more positive and healthy work environment. And then, maybe you won't need to be taking as many days off for your mental health because you won't need an escape from where you're working. And so I think that ultimately your requests and your, what did you call them? Hit points? What'd you call them?
Tuan
Exactly. Beautifully said.
Tuan
I don't remember. At this point I feel like I've said 3 million words, so... HAHAHAHA
Jessica
Why can't- Good. Oh yeah, we have to wrap up soon. No, the hot takes, hot takes, that's what I was saying. Your advice and your hot takes, ultimately you're showing that you move through your life and through your career with immense intention and incredible bravery, in my opinion. Because to me…
Tuan
Oh yes yes.
Jessica
sending emails and trying to find associate jobs and still doing your acting jobs and quitting jobs, quitting jobs, that's just as brave, if not braver, than requesting the jobs in the first place and putting yourself out there in the first place. So I think that your story is one of intention, coming to the, listening to your intuition, setting boundaries.
Tuan
Hmm.
Jessica
and trying to create a better place for you and for all of us together. And I am so grateful for that because so much of what my personal experience was revolved around assholes in power, ultimately, one way or another. And for me, I am still learning how to set those boundaries. And honestly, this podcast is an enormous part of how I feel like I'm trying to take back my own power and control within an industry where I felt like what am I doing and who is leading me in this kind of thing. And I highly recommend or suggest to anybody listening to find any little ounce of empowerment through anything that you can. Like if you're curious about being an assistant or an associate, go reach out. You never know. If you want to go to ask to maybe assist a dance class to start off, whatever it is. I mean, being an associate was the greatest evolution of my career. And it's not that I'm not going to continue pursuing performing, but you do have such a broader sense of what's going on as a whole. And you do feel more empowered to
Tuan
Absolutely. Hmm.
Jessica
have a positive impact on those around you. And that's not always the case with people in leadership positions. So I completely applaud you and am so grateful for all of the work that you have done and that you're doing. And I think we'll definitely need to circle back for part two because this, I feel like we, I feel like we just scratched the surface to be honest. I feel like we're both bubbling.
Tuan
Absolutely. I know. And to be honest, and I genuinely came in with no agenda. Like I wasn't thinking, oh, I would like to touch on these points. I once again, in the theme of just writing it and kind of letting myself be, I was truly like, I don't know what Jessica's gonna ask. I'm not gonna pre plan answers in case I think I know what Jessica's gonna ask. And just kinda
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Tuan
ride my truth and your truth and really listening to each other and seeing where the conversation goes and went.
Jessica
Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna wrap up with one final question and that is what is your human bio? So the bio that exists off of the resume.
Tuan
Hmm. Oh, wow. Well, my human bio is, I kind of mentioned this right at the beginning because it's very much part of my journey. I am adopted, grew up in Buffalo, New York. I am a Gordon Ramsay lover, a chef. I watch every sort of kitchen, kitchen. Can you tell it's the end? I'm like losing my words. It's any type of cooking show. I am an avid how to get away with murder fan. I've been rekindling my love of Avatar the last airbender, a lot of TV. I enjoy going to parks. I love nature. I enjoy spending time with my friends and people that make me leave them and feel great and re-energized and trying not to spend as much time with people that I may see and I leave drained. Human bio, I have really, this is gonna be so out of pocket. I recently have really settled on the idea that I want kids. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, but I'll just throw that out there for now. And I'm an Aquarius. I don't know why I said that. I'm really not that big into astrology.
Jessica
Mm.
Tuan
All I know is that I am an Aquarius. Couldn't tell you anything about it. And that I, at the time of this podcast, am 28 years old in my later 20s. And the last thing about my human bio is I really am someone who is...trying to lead with truth and integrity. I get so self-conscious of the fact that sometimes, not sometimes, I always am, but that I am blunt and that I am someone that is not afraid to talk about things that once again, us as a culture has put as taboo or something that you don't speak of, like. To me, life is too short. And yes, some of the things I discuss like may make some people uncomfortable and the topics I bring up, but at the end of the day, I'm trying to lead with humanity and integrity. And the things that I do bring up that are uncomfortable is to help move us forward. Like, and to try to make it an equitable space for everybody. So there you have it.
Jessica
Well, thank you from the bottom of my heart. This was incredible. What a beautiful way to start season three. And I can't believe this is our first time meeting, but it's only the beginning. It's only the beginning. Thank you so, so much. And I guess that's it.
Tuan
I know. Okay, thank you, Jessica.
Jessica
All right, thank you, bye. I'll just pause out of it.
Tuan
Bye!