Reclaiming Your Artistry with Kaia Goodenough
Show Notes
Kaia Goodenough is a freelance curator, writer and facilitator in London, particularly interested in interdisciplinary and collaboratively embodied practices. Kaia originally trained as a contemporary dancer at London Studio Centre and her choreography has been performed at Lillian Bayliss, Sadlers Wells, DanceEast, Battersea Arts Centre, The Place and the Point, and Eastleigh. She recently studied at the Royal College of Art graduating with a Masters in curating contemporary Art.
In today’s episode, Kaia discusses how she took her complicated relationship with dance and worked to reclaim it as her own, how being a dancer influences her art, producing, and curation, and the beauty of dancing explicitly to have a good time.
She also shares how having her work funded was the least creative she’s ever been, how the choreographic project empowering students led to her never being asked to return, and how she explores femininity and womanhood through movement.
Follow along on Kaia’s journey: kaiagoodenough.co.uk
TRANSCRIPT
Jessica Altchiler
Hello and welcome to the story project. I'm your host, Jessica Altchiler and today's guest is Kaia Goodenough, a freelance curator writer and facilitator in London particularly interested in interdisciplinary and collaboratively embodied practices. Kaya originally trained as contemporary dancer at London studio centre, graduating in 2016. Went off to perform in a variety of stage and community contexts as well as choreographing work that has been performed at Lilian Baylis does as well and pleased Battersea Arts Center the place to the point and she was first junior associate artists at dance is between 2018 and 2021. Hi has always had a fascination with the in between space of performer and audience and now finds this unpredictable and volatile space to be where she situates her practice. Looking towards more inclusive practices that welcome people into the artists places have retrieved, stimulation and utopian political thinking. She recently studied at the Royal College of Art graduating with the masters of curating contemporary art. In today's episode, I shares how she returned to dance on how she explores femininity and womanhood. And how her dance background fully supports her current work creating in various mediums and capacities. Please enjoy this conversation with Kaya, good enough.
Unknown Speaker
Hi, Kaya. Hi. How are you today?
Kaia Goodenough
I'm good. I'm very good. Yeah, how are you doing?
Jessica Altchiler
I'm good. I'm happy that we're here. Chatting because we've been talking about this moment for many years.
Kaia Goodenough
Many many is. That's exciting. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
So I want to first get into with you, your history of being a dancer, and some of your experiences with that. And then how you transitioned out of being a dancer, or maybe not out of being a dancer, but dancing professionally. And in that pursuit.
Kaia Goodenough
Yes, so I, as with most dancers, I started dancing at a very young age. And it was just part of my life. And I feel like it's innately been part of my life, always. But I am now coming back to bringing it back into my life again, because it went from being something that I enjoyed and wanted to spend all my time doing to something that I purposely tried to move away from, and then have realized it is in every pore of my being and I can't move away from it. So it's finding a new healthy relationship with that, I guess, and reclaiming it as my own again. So I went to London studio Center, which is conservatoire chaining, and did contemporary dance there. So but it was a mixed bag there was like jazz and musical theater and ballet and a mixture of different disciplines. But I was predominantly on the contemporary pathway. And it was during my time there that I think I began to start moving more towards choreographing and making and being in a more creative space, which I'd always kind of known I would probably end up doing as my leaning was always to more like creative stuff. And I liked to be my own, like person in charge of that. And then when I was in my third year, I noticed more and more that like I maybe wasn't like the technically the best person. But I got opportunities through when we were devising work. And I was making my own movement and making my own solos or whatever. And my opportunity came through that. So I think I was quite lucky and that I quite quickly realized that potentially my strengths lay in a more creative choreographic round. But I did like perform when I graduated and watch different dance companies, but also in London, which I think it's a bit different in different places. But as someone that's emerging, it became more and more apparent that you had more opportunity if you made your own work and you could create more opportunity for other people. And I think that's what I really enjoyed doing was like facilitating space for other people being able to have these periods of research, create work and still be dancing like yes, we weren't earning loads of money out of it. At the beginning we were like making work because we wanted to and I was mainly making my friends dance for me. But it then developed into getting funding and working with different people and being commissioned to make work on different groups of people, which I was very lucky with as well and had support from institutions. And I was an associate artists at dance east, and they helped me to get funding. So I managed to be in these like spaces of research, which is when you joined us as well for a week just to explore, which was so nice. And also like a privilege to just have space to like play with ideas, such a privilege. So yeah, I was like making a lot. And then I kind of accidentally fell into producing more, sort of just because I needed money. And those kinds of roles paid more. And from like, self producing my own work. And then when COVID happened, I think that was like a shift for everybody really, without asking for one, whether for good or for bad. And it was in that moment that I decided that I didn't want to do anything to do with dance anymore. And I went and studied art instead. But in my time doing my Masters, I quickly realized that dance informed everything that I did, even though I was trying so hard to get away from it. And I really, I just didn't want to be typecast as the dancer, I didn't want to be put in those situations. But actually, it informed the way that I even looked at things that informed the way that I've thought about relationships with audiences, people looking at work, people navigating space, like it was all informed some dancing. And I have now come back around to like, actually seeing that as like, what makes my opinions interesting is that I come from a dance background, and I have this innate knowledge through my body, and through learning through like falling and trying stuff and failing. And that is such a privilege to have learned through your body in that way. And I think it makes you much more of a risk taker. And it also makes you appreciate what whether this is for good or for bad. It makes you very disciplined and able to appreciate when someone gives you time. And I found that on my masters that I appreciated every second of teaching, which I think came from having such a disciplined background. But yeah, and so now I work mainly in curating interdisciplinary events, and spaces and workshops and community projects. And then I work for an artist specifically in his studio to make money. And also because I like it. And then I'm trying to pull back. Yeah, and so recently, I've my like, New Year's resolution was to go back to class. And I have started going back, just to like dance for me. Because otherwise in the past, like three years only, like dancing I've really done is in the club. Nice. Which still, I'm like, Absolutely. I'll make big moves move out the way. But it's not. Yeah. And I think it's just reclaiming that. Want to dance again, is exciting. Because it's so intrinsic to your life. And then it's like it's gone. And you've been doing it every day since you're like, five. That's mad for that way of learning and being and existing to just disappear. But it's so hard to keep it up because it costs money to go to class. It's hard to get jobs. Auditioning sucks. So it's like how do you keep that practice for yourself, in the same way that an artist has a practice. But it is quite a communal practice. I think that's what is a bit trickier. And that's what's beautiful about dance is the community and the like relationships you have in that space for an hour and a half with the people. And you can't really do that by yourself and your bedroom. It's not the same.
Jessica Altchiler
I feel like something that I think about a lot and write about a lot and have mentioned on here before is mistaking a complicated relationship with dance and with my body and with movement for not liking dance and not wanting to dance when really it was because of the institutions and because of the actual atmosphere that I found myself in. I didn't feel safe anymore. I didn't feel fun anymore. They're all of these things. So I really resonate with what you're saying about coming back to this space and To dance and to movement for you, because you want to and in the meantime, taking your dance moves to the club and finding your way to keep expressing yourself and being engaged in your body in a way that is empowering, and then your control. And how is it? How does it feel being back in classes?
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, I mean, it's nice, it's feels very, it feels like home in a sounds a bit more. But it is a space that you straight away, you're like, Okay, I know what I'm doing. My body knows where it's going. It knows these pathways. It's done them before, they are a bit rusty. But these pathways have existed before. And I think also, it's not like, I've completely stopped moving. In fact, I couldn't like, I feel like after you've been institutionalized like that for so long. If you don't move in a day, it's like, drives you crazy. But you have to do some, like I have like energy, I have to exert in some way. So like through like yoga or running like, I've still been doing that. And I feel like yoga has been a really nice way to still feel. There's times in yoga classes, I feel like I'm dancing, I potentially. And I'm like, Oh, God just done a full head on that. But it's good. It feels like something that had like, never gone. And it's really nice to be in that space with no pressure anymore. And like, I haven't been going to professional classes, I've just been going to like adult classes. And it's really nice to not have this impending feeling that you're doing this to get a job and you're doing this to make money like you're back in that space that you were when you were 14, and you went because you wanted to. Like I'm not there because I have to be there. There to like keep up my technique. I'm actually just there to dance and have a nice time, which it began as. And there's this thing of which I sounds extremely cynical, and potentially negative. But like there's times where I'm like, why don't we follow our dreams, because we just learned the things we like. Like I used to love dancing. And then I went to dance school, and I still loved it then but it was challenging, it became something that you're doing to get a job essentially, at some point. And then the struggle of trying to get a job with it, then made me hate it. And then now I'm doing something completely, not completely different. It's still super informed. But my career, or like the way I'm making money is very different. And I can return to enjoying dancing again. And like, obviously, for the few people that do make money out of performing, like obviously, that's amazing. But it's not possible for everybody. Like there's not enough funding, there's not enough jobs, and there's not enough opportunity. And it's like how do we find the balance of striving to make money out of what We love or just actually leaving that as something we love. And I've come back to that now just being something I love, I still think I will probably start making work again, like it feels like it's on the edge again. Like I want to like Cove off again and be in spaces with people and be doing that. But it doesn't feel like the be all end all of like, well, I have to do this right now to get to this next stage of my career because I want to be this commission person here and like, whatever. I feel like I have the space to be creative again. And I think it's obviously such a privilege to have been funded. And when I had funding to make my own work, it was amazing. But it was like the most uncreative I've ever felt. And I suddenly had this like pressure that I arguably made myself. But there's pressure of well, someone's paying me to do this now, I'm being paid to make that means someone believes in what I make. And that pressure made me feel extremely uncreative. Which is really annoying, because that's in the moment when you want to feel free by the fact that you have funding to do this. But it actually didn't evoke freedom for me it actually made it I actually feel like I returned to like the pressure of being a dancer and dance school. Like I felt like I had these people to please again, which choreographing had been something that removed me from pleasing people. I wasn't just in the space waiting for a good anymore. If you're making your own work you like kind of give the goods yourself and like when I think about dance school now. I would love to go to dance school now. But at the with all I know that because I think I could go and dance for myself for three years and not just dance for a teacher to tell me I'm doing well. One so weak, maybe, who knows? They could just say Good try. But I'll be like loving good try as well. But maybe I'd go and like point my toes for myself rather than someone else.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, I think that any artists can relate to this conversation across the board. And I'm curious how you felt when we were working together. Because that felt that was an entirely new experience for me to work on something for one week, without a product that you need to hand over at the end, I believe you just needed to show excerpts and proof that you had made some kind of progress and experience. But would you tell everyone about what you were making then? And how you felt through that process?
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, I mean, that was great, actually. So that was just a period of like r&d. So we just got given space, by dance east, and then I had a small pot of money. So I could pay three, yeah, three dancers and myself to go to a studio for a week and just explore some ideas. And it was at a point where I had a couple of commissions, with students at my old dance school, I had a commission with a youth group. And I had this like, sort of in the future, that I was going to apply for extra funding to make another work. And so it was essentially just that, I had a few books I liked. And we explored some poems in a book into movement, I had some music that I liked. And I knew that I wanted to make something with these Serbs, particularly was working with first and second years from the dance school that I went to. And I wanted to do something that was informed by their experience at dance school. And as well in like an empowering way, explore, like femininity and womanhood through movement, which was at the time what I was really interested in, like, what is this femininity within movement? Because through history, dance was something for the male gaze? And like, what does that mean, in the movement we're doing now? Where is that in the movement we're doing now? And is that a bad thing or a good thing? Like, it's kind of it can go either way. And like the different forms of sexualization that exists through dance through our ages as well, because it's not just when you're older, it's happening when you're younger. And it's a constant question, especially when you're staring at yourself in the mirror all day, every day, and you've got people speaking to you, and just basically creating a space through through devising, where we can like question some of these things. And I really wanted to perform that in the institution, that they're doing it to those students. And so we're exploring those ideas. And it was, it was a really like, safe space for us to do that, too. And a really fun space. Like, I feel like all the work I made had an element of like humor and irony to it. So it wasn't, it wasn't fake therapy, which is an issue in institutions as well. But it was a way to just like speak about it and kind of think about the hilarity of it as well. But that, yeah, so that time was just for research, which is like a really important part of making it so. And that's often what makes dance something that's quite expensive to fund, because you need to be able to have people in a space and you need to be able to just mess around, like ideally you want by at least two weeks to mess around with no output needed. And that currently in like England, the funding system is that a lot of funding has been pulled from the arts at the moment. And that sort of makes dance something that's quite hard to fund because it's really expensive, but it's necessary. And it's really important to be able to try these things through our bodies. And it was really beautiful to also have like you in this space as well and have all these different people have different people that come from different spaces and have experienced life in different ways to explore these ideas before I then went and explored them with a different group of people and to have no pressure on that. It's such a beautiful thing to be able to do. It's also really fun
Jessica Altchiler
It was so fun. And I remember a couple of things that stood out from that week. One of them was, you had us talk about what ballet teachers had said to us in the past. And there was a section that we were working on, where we were voicing the statements that these teachers had said to us, which was great. And another section related to that was, we went into groups of two, and we created ballet based work, where one was almost like the teacher and one was the student. And it was kind of making a mockery of all of the ways that we're supposed to be changing our bodies and doing what they say, but do this, but don't do that. And we each had to create a duet based off of that. And it was fantastic. We
Kaia Goodenough
kind of made like a powder of corrections. Yeah, and they're like voicing what the ballet teachers said to us actually ended up in the piece that I made on the first and second years at the college. And like they, it was the most like, powerful moment for me, because I know they found it so liberating. And they were all stood, like right on the edge of the stage. And their teachers were in the audience, as well. I mean, I didn't get invited back to ever make anything again. Which I don't mind. And they were like that, I made my point. And they were stood there. And they were just shouting these things out loud that people have said to them seriously, as well. And like some of them was so awful. And it was funny. But like I made them do it for long enough that it went from funny to actually really awful. Because you just go through, I think if something happens long enough on stage, you go through this like, oh, that's quite funny. Okay, I can hear what she's saying. There was like 12 of them. So sometimes some we like sculpt it through improv, but like you could hear them. Sometimes you can hit anyone sometimes that it grew and grew and grew. And you would, and as it grew, you'd be like, Wait, hang on, what are they saying? And like one of them was like, you'd get pregnant today? And it's like, you wouldn't? You wouldn't say that to anybody. But why do you say in a dance situation? Like, why are you allowed to ask someone what they had for breakfast? Right? And everyone knows what that undertone is to that. Like, it's not saying you look fat to say, but it is. And they just found it, it's so empowering to shout this back to them. And to adjust the audience with all of these awful things that people have said to them. And then it like, culminated in this like big rage, full running around and jumping and big movement. And they've got themselves dressed into power suits. And it was great. It was like a reverse strip, because they got more dress. And they were in these amazing power suits that they all felt amazing it and it was just like, also, what was like so horrible in a way was like how easy everyone, like everyone had so many things. Like it wasn't hard. Right? Like it really wasn't hard to get those sentences out of them. Just for like, Oh, what if your balance you just said to you? And then they're like, oh, yeah, there's there's this there's, as I bet, good. Everyone is every day. And it's not. There is an undertone to them, or I like you. And there's been loads of press in the UK about ballet schools recently. It's been a big conversation about how they treat people, which is obviously terribly bad. But it's like the syntax is shifting. But it doesn't mean it's not still there. So that yes, they're not telling these girls to be thinner. But they are telling them to lengthen, and arguably lengthening all those girls know what that means. Right? But yes, you're not saying to them, you need to stop eating, but you are. And like, that's really dangerous. And so I think it's really important to also have these conversations, because then it's spoken out loud. And like I hope it's like a little bit different now, but I don't know if it is.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, a couple of things on that. First of all, what you also gave to these students was the ability to actually use their voice, like say something out loud, not just something that is expressed through the body and usually what's being expressed for them in that kind of situation. They're just being told exactly what to do and how to do it. So not only are you letting them physicalize movement in this sway. But then you're saying, Let's actually use our fucking voices and say these things, call these people out. And also, it's all on you, as the director and the choreographer of this piece, you're saying, Hey, you can all do this. And no, you can't get in trouble for it, because I'm the one having you do this thing. Yeah. So that is incredible. In and of itself. Yeah, totally. And then the other part of it is, in terms of commenting on people's bodies, and it being implied, and not necessarily explicit, that is so important to observe. And I had it coming at me, explicitly, and implicitly, and implicitly, could also just be, even if no one is saying something explicitly to you, you're constantly receiving this information about what it means to be successful, what your body is supposed to look like to get these opportunities. And we see it all the time. It's not just within a college dance context, it's not even just within a dance context, we see it in our society at large. So just to be constantly aware of what you're taking in and what you're going to let be your reality or fight being your reality.
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, totally. And I think it's that reward. Especially when you're in dance training, because you are just looking for awards constantly. You're looking for affirmation, and you're looking to be told that your what you're doing is working, and you're getting better. And I even in my own experience, like the most unhappy I was, with my like, own body, during my time at dance school was when I was like getting told I was the best. It was when I was getting told that I was like really improving. And when I was getting told that, like you're doing really well, moment, like something's really shifted for you, something's really changed. You're like working really hard, like all of this. And that was when, in my own self, I felt the most unhappy, but I was performing well. So then it's like, this contradiction of like outside inside, we then don't have any, there's no support to try and understand that. Like, how, how do you understand that, like, you actually aren't very happy, but you're really good at dancing at the moment. And like, really, those things shouldn't. It shouldn't work like that, like shouldn't be when you're feeling your best in yourself, then that is when you perform the best. I don't know, there was definitely some more manipulative techniques, which I don't know if the teachers did it. I'm not sure they did it spitefully. I think they did it, because it's how they learned and they were replicating the way that they were spoken to, and taught. But like, I know, that I felt like some of my teachers knew that if they were mean to me, I try harder. So then you get caught in that loop of being that person of like, if we correct her loads, she will try harder. And if we're mean to her, she will want to prove us wrong, which is fair. And I did. And I do respond pretty well to like, criticism, and I know that. But like, there comes a point where you're actually just like using that as a tool. And I don't think that is okay. In that context, when you can also also visibly seeing how everyone else has been treated as well, because you're in a group situation. And I think that's also something that needs that has to be taken into consideration is that you're not an athlete that has a one on one coach, like you're in a room filled with 20 people. So if you're criticized or criticized in front of 20 people, right, if you're, if you're told you're doing really well, that's also in front of 20 people, which feels amazing. But if you're being picked on that is in front of 20 people. And like that's, you have you get used to it, you normalize it but like that is not normal to have to like go through that on a daily basis. Like to have to build that thick skin. Very thick skin.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. At a very young age, we start having to seek out validation and rewards across the board specifically in dance for sure. And so you don't learn how to have this like intrinsic motivation and desire to do better and improve for yourself because it's fulfilling and it's empowering, and you're embodied and you can make these decisions and you can work hard and move forward. And so what And You're conditioned at such a young age, to just want to get that teachers approval, or that choreographers approval or that parents approval, or whatever it is, that is going to bleed into every single thing that you do. So by the time you're in a college program or something like that, when you are getting graded, when you are getting chosen or not chosen for certain opportunities, of course, you're going to have this feeling of oh, like I do well, when I respond well to criticism. But is that really true? Because if you feel like shit about it, and you're defining your sense of worth, and self based on what these other people are saying, it's not really working for you. It's just how we've learned to tie a day. And it's something that I've had to question a lot because I, I remember, like, if I had a teacher ever, that was too nice. I just feel like I couldn't work hard in their class. But then on the other end of the extreme, if I had someone who was just a douchebag, about it, I also, I was just so resentful. And so do you think there is a happy medium, and I've had plenty of teachers who have accomplished that with tons of support and tons of pushing. And I think that that's the happy place. Yeah. But I do challenge in my own life, and in the lives of my peers, and certainly my students who have like a bunch of different teachers that they're working with, you know, what, what is actually working? And what is just like us being conditioned to think in a certain way?
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, totally. And I think even sometimes it'd be like, I would rather be criticized and not spoken to at all, because at least you're getting attention. And that's a really like, negative relationship really, like it's quite abusive. If you think about it, like you wouldn't have that relationship. If you had that relationship with anyone else in your life, people would tell you to not be in a relationship with that person, whether friendship lover, whatever, partner family, like you shouldn't feel appreciate being criticized because at least have a spoken to. Like that.
Jessica Altchiler
I so understand that. I so underst actually have a funny story kind of, with one teacher I had in school who he was a ballet teacher. And it felt like he would just give us arbitrarily hard combinations, give us things that we weren't ready for in terms of it was too early on in class, and we weren't warmed up enough to do this thing he's asking us to do. And it felt like he was just sitting there trying to like, watch a show. watch people do this, whatever he says he's conducting, and we just have to dance for him. And I was a good girl like, and that's not I'm not saying that's a good thing. But that's who I was. I was I wanted to please people, I wanted to get the eight plus, I was very polite, all those things. And I for this class would just kind of stand in the back and like chat with my friends, which was so not me. But I had zero respect for this person. We had him for two years. He didn't know any of our names. He didn't try at all. And anyway, so he gives us this ridiculously challenging petite Allegro, which, for people who don't know, it's like a bunch of small jumps. So it's very stamina based. It's Jump, jump, jump jump for a minute, or however long. And it was one of those things where I was so pissed off, because again, his bar didn't lead us to be set up for success in this combination. We weren't prepared. I wasn't ready to do it. And so I was just sitting the back chatting. And he called me out. He like pointed to me and he's like, Do you know the combination? I said, Yeah. And he's like, okay, come do it. And I did it in front of him. I can remember it was that day or a different day, he had us do this most ridiculous thing, which was again, we're not warm. We're freezing in the room. He didn't warm us up well, and the first thing he does when we go to center for people who know dance a little bit, he had us go from a grind Pa into an entre Schuchat like not I have no I have no words for how ridiculous
Kaia Goodenough
that's gonna hurt horrible.
Jessica Altchiler
It's exactly what I said. I raised my hand. I said, Excuse me, would you please explain to me how to do this in a way that like is you know, I can do it functionally. It's not just It's like, going into her knee joints and all this stuff. And he said, That's not possible. And I said to him, Okay, I'm not going to do it, then Oh, actually, you know, this happened before the jumping than the jump thing happened like the next class. And then he I gained his respect somehow for standing up to him. And he started coming up to me during class, like he would come up to random people and kind of chat with them at the bar, he started chatting to me, I'm like, I feel like that is such an excellent example of the mind games that can be played in leadership positions, and also, how people who had good careers aren't necessarily great teachers, and how they can take advantage of their positions.
Kaia Goodenough
I think that's so important that just because you're a good dancer, doesn't mean you're a good teacher. And just unlike some really good teachers might not have had like, major careers that all students are flown over. And it's hard because when you are a student, you do you have this thing of like, I'm gonna look up my teacher, see what they did, because you want, you're like, I want to have a career like them. And it's really inspiring. But like, that doesn't mean they're very good at teaching, it can mean quite the opposite. It could be that they have like, no understanding or that, I think when I started teaching as well, when I first graduated, I suddenly realized that I had never taught someone that couldn't do it. And it was like a real like learning to learn how to teach people that couldn't already do it. Because I went straight from my first teaching was out on a cat scheme, which is what I did before I went to, we have them in the UK, they're called like center for advanced trainings. And they're for contemporary, mainly, there is one for Southeast Asian dance as well. And they you audition for them and up until you're 16. And they're like government funded. So that means tested. But it just gives you the kind of like, it's like pre vocational training. And so I went and sought out one of those, but like, the kids are really talented. Like, you can, they're really talented. Like, everyone's quite good already. Like, they've obviously got lots to learn, but like they pick stuff up and like you have lots to, like, do and then my first commission on, like, younger people was with a youth dance company that like, potentially, they weren't gonna become dancers, but they just did dance for fun. And I found it so hard, like embarrassingly hard. And I was like, I don't, I don't know what to do, because they can't do it. And I've sight my perception has been, like completely shifted. And I actually potentially haven't really had many good teachers, because I don't know how to teach this, right. Because I don't actually know what to do. I haven't been taught well, myself, maybe, because I don't have this. Like, I haven't learned the skills through osmosis and that way. So it was really interesting. And also to be in an environment where like, which I found really hard was because they didn't really try that hard. And because they didn't want to be dances. I was like, why don't you try? Have you practice at home? What's going on? Why don't you hear half an hour early? To warm up? What? Like all of these like roles that you don't know about? I was literally talking about that yesterday with someone because on our first in our like third year, of course, you are then treated as a professional company. On our first day we turned up just like the time on the timetable. And our director shouted at us because she was like, You should be here half an hour early.
You should always be we're like oh, that's just a rule. We don't know.
Right? But it's like so ingrained that you know, you've got to do a few planks before you start you got to do your warm up. Always some planks you know you've got to get in that plank otherwise how are you going to
Speaker 1
impossible it's absolutely impossible. Yeah, absolutely
Kaia Goodenough
impossible. I do pranks before I go to the club now.
Unknown Speaker
I could see that
Jessica Altchiler
I I definitely do yoga or some kind of movement before any event because if I'm going to wear any kind of heel, I I can't do I need like I need my whole body to be warm and prepared and stretched and like oh yeah, I need to do that
Kaia Goodenough
important life skills. Yeah, that's what they should be teachers aren't school like this is for when you wear heels? No, but I do actually feel like I am If I might got something quite nerve wracking to do that day, like I do need to move before it, because it does exert those like that adrenaline. And like that excess energy, I do think it's powerful in that way, it's really good for settling yourself, which is like yoga has definitely taught me that, or taught me that movement can be that, which I think is nice, is that actually movement can just be a coming into your body and settling of your nervous system. And like connecting, rather than
Unknown Speaker
trying to be better.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. And honestly, starting yoga, it took me a while to not be in the dancer mentality of, oh, how deep is your lunge? Or how far over can you go and your forward fold and all of those things like it takes a minute to really, truly not look around the room and see what other people are doing? And I definitely, yeah, it is an unlearning. And it makes me think of one of my dear students who I've been doing private lessons with for many years. Now, she has more of an acting and singing background. So we work on dance together. And at first, it was very like dance, dance dance. And then I started teaching her more tools that are based in yoga, or Pilates or breath work. And she auditions and she performs and she does a bunch of stuff. But one of my favorite moments with her was when she told me that in the waiting room at an audition, she was feeling a little bit overwhelmed, and she went into child's pose, just started breathing. Everyone is like, warming up like crazy, and this and that and fixing their hair. And she's sitting there in a child's pose. And I was like, that is my greatest achievement for you. That's what I want to get to with you. Because also, we're not taught that movement can be empowering for us. We we're, you're constantly thinking about how your body can achieve some shape, achieved some piece of choreography that someone else is dictating. And as you say, even if then you get funding for it, and you're creating your own work, so was still funding you to do it. And there are usually rules around it. So it's not just a free at the end, if you're making something on your own. You're using your own time and your own resources. And so that has its own limitations, too. So it's kind of just, I don't have an easy fix. And this is life. But I think, I don't know, I think there's something even redeeming about the conversation. Even if we can't all of a sudden get paid to do everything we want to do exactly and not feel the most uncreative when you're being funded and all of those things.
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, for sure. I think that also something that is maybe like potentially different in like contemporary dance training, because you do quite so much improv like, I guess the improv classes become that space for you. That space of like, you just move for yourself, and you move how your body wants to move. Most of the time until you have Coke was watching you do improv, and then it's like, oh, then it becomes a bit different. But it can be that and I still feel like that, like I do. I'll still go to like Algar classes. And like, I find that super empowering that you're just like moving for an hour. And it's all your own body. And it's not prescriptive, although it's lead, but it's not prescriptive. And I think that's so beneficial. To not just always feel like you're doing something for people.
Jessica Altchiler
I do think that I, even in a Gaga class or even an improv class, I still was so unable to not be comparing and even. It's like, it's hard in a yoga class.
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, for sure. It definitely is hard. Like I can remember doing, like, improv classes where like people would get picked out then it's like, kind of feeling the point. Right. And it definitely is really hard to like to release that. And I still feel like sometimes in yoga classes, I still have to be like, stop looking around the room. It doesn't matter. Because it's so ingrained to want to always be like if they're doing that I should be doing that too tonight. Right? Or to just be like trying really hard. I do finally get some off option. Yeah, like I feel like my percentages are off. And I always think this is like more like a fitness club. cuz I can only do 100% I look at people I'm like, Why are you sweating? Like I'm dripping? Because I only know how to give 100%. To my own detriment, right?
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. So that's what also was one really helpful thing with yoga when some teachers would say, This is what I say I'm like, you can come to class and lay down for an hour on your mat. Yeah. Like, really? That's, that's success in the yoga class. It's like, well, we don't need to define it as success. It's just an option. But what's the right option?
Kaia Goodenough
I know like i Even if I, if I choose Child's Pose, over like downward dog, I'm like, well done me.
Unknown Speaker
Look at me, everybody.
Jessica Altchiler
I've looked at no choice I made. So I want to ask you, what did it feel like to go into your master's program for art? I'm curious to hear what it felt like to be in an institution. But for a different craft, and something that was always a part of you, but that you weren't so focused on for your entire life? Like it was with dance? Yeah,
Kaia Goodenough
it was. Yeah, it was very, it was different. I think one thing that, which I do actually think is changing a lot in dance institutions in the UK. But what I noticed straight away it was the difference in being an art school was like, how much you're just encouraged to be yourself. Like, it's completely like, well, you need to explore your own practice, like what makes your practice different from everyone else's practice. And actually, I felt like when we graduated dance school, that's the questions we were being asked, but we didn't get given the tools to do that, because we were squashed, so small and pitted against each other. So like we didn't, that didn't ever have the space to figure out what our practice was, and what made our movement different. until like, maybe in our third year, I remember having, like a few choreographers coming in and picking out people's movement they liked but by that point, it was too late, you made a load of clothes, like you can't suddenly ask me to find my movement, when you've been like training it out of me. And I think that's the major difference between dance and art institutions. Is that straight away from day one and art, it's like, well, what makes you you? Like, what is it that's interesting about you, what's interesting about your background, or what you're, it doesn't have to actually be a personal thing. It can just be that you like, whatever. And it's very much pushed in that way of like you carving out. The reason why someone would hire you is because of your individuality. Not because because everyone ultimately has the same thing on a piece of paper. And I think that's like when you're going into auditions, like everyone's good. Like, everyone is good. There's so many good people out there. Like it's not a competition of who's the best anymore. It's a competition of like, what do you bring?
Jessica Altchiler
Exactly right?
Kaia Goodenough
And hat, like, how do we get bring that from art school into like dance institutions more, and I do think it is happening more here. I don't know about it in the US, but it is happening here more because actually, that's how you get jobs. And I think institutions have noticed that, that it is about like you as a performer, a choreographer once you because ultimately you're devising the work. So they want your movement. They don't want their own, they're not performing it. So yeah, when I went into art school, I was like, Oh, wow, everyone just cares about like me. They don't, there's no tick boxes. And it was really, I was lucky in that I had tutors that were very open in the way that we did anything. So like all written assignments, you could do it in kind of whatever way you wanted, like creatively, academically performatively, whatever. And we also weren't graded for anything at all, which I found like the most liberating part of it was that there was no grades. It was possible fail nothing. And some people that academic people found that really hard, because they were like, but how do I know how I'm doing? Whereas I was like, This is great. The best thing free to just give me that qualitative feedback. I'll take it all. And then I guess like in terms of like, people, and something that I found quite frustrating was that there was quite a lot of people there that didn't really care to be there. I had never experienced that before. And like maybe you do experience that if you just go to regular university, but like in a Conservatoire, no, everyone wants to be there, that just doesn't exist. And I found it really hard to navigate having to work with people that didn't actually want to be there, or didn't put the work in. Because I was just so used to the fact that like, you should feel also think I, there's a thing of feeling lucky to be there. Or that's the narrative that is forced upon you. And conservators is like, well, you should be lucky to be here. And that narrative wasn't put on me, in my masters at all, it was actually like, Well, what do you want from us? What well, as well as like, you had to like, fulfill the requirements of the course. But it was also like, Well, okay, you have to write a dissertation. But like, what do you want to gain out of writing a dissertation because you're here to do something. So again, that it doesn't matter about what we want. Whereas you're just like, constantly told that you should be lucky to be there previously, and now it's not like you should be lucky. It's like, well, what do you want to do? Where do you want to take your practice? So? Yeah, which was really amazing. So they have that space to like, think. And for me, it was to reject dance, and then bring it back. And realize that actually, it was what made me one of the things not the only thing, but like one of the things in that scene that made me interesting, because other people didn't think in the same way as me because they didn't come from that they hadn't learned in that way. So yeah, I think it allowed me to reclaim some of the pedagogies that I have from dancing into like a positive way of being and looking at art and looking at spaces and being creative and thinking critically, essentially, which I really felt like I missed out on in dance school was like the criticality which is also really important to be able to think like that, to be able to survive, I think,
Jessica Altchiler
can you talk about how you felt dance coming back into your life, and if it was a conscious thing, where it was just that desire to reconnect was just kind of there? Can you talk about that experience?
Unknown Speaker
I think it was,
Jessica Altchiler
I think it was a desire,
Kaia Goodenough
and a feeling like something was missing. And realizing it was that. And like, I think a lot of it came from just being most of majority of my father's went to art school classic. And none of us dance anymore. Classic.
And it's like, whenever we're together, like, we just like move it always I'm like, wow, this is amazing. Like, well, how beautiful. And I can remember being like on a night out and one of our friends that didn't go to school, he was I just love going out of you guys, because you're just really go for it. And that makes me feel like I can. I was just like, that's amazing. Like, that's the point of it, because it's liberation. And like dancing is political. And it's, like, such a beautiful thing to be able to do with people and connect with people. And it's like, been in our society forever. Like, it's probably the most human thing to do is to move yet, with all tied up and like we have this awful like British sensibility of like, being scared of dancing, and awkward about it, when it's actually like the most natural thing ever. And I think it was that sort of like feeling of like liberation. And like, actually, like this is innate in me and I want to move and I want to dance and I love it. Like it's amazing. And then like I went to like improv classes to break myself back into it again. And I feel like I want to go to more like technique classes, but it's actually really hard to find them that aren't pro classes, but it's such a beautiful thing. And it's a beautiful thing to withhold as well and I started going to watch dance again. I hadn't really gone to see much for a while. And now I've like a go quite a lot again, and it's just really nice to witness that and actually also witnessed other people being really into dance. How thing, like taking friends to dance that aren't dancers, and watching them be really moved by it kind of like taught, not taught me but like, reminded me of why it's so beautiful and why I fell in love with it. Because you forget that you forget that it actually does really move people. And you're like, Oh, so it's really nice. It's really beautiful. And yeah, and I think one thing that I really noticed, which is like, is when I was doing my Masters was how much attention I put on the audience, or the way of receiving work, and how much when you're dancing and making like theatrical works and like theater, performance work, whatever. You're always thinking about how the audience is receiving it, you're always thinking about what that relationship is you're thinking about, if you're looking at them, not looking at them. How what journey are you taking the audience on in that specific moment, I guess, in a very light dramaturgical way. And I noticed that a lot of the artists I was doing my Masters didn't even think about who the people looking at it. Which can be like a negative of the fact that you're told to just like, express yourself, no one cares about, because they're forgotten about who's receiving the work and the point of the work. And that's something that is so integral and performing all the time, is so integral to think about the journey of the audience, whether that's how they enter a space, exit a space, how long they look at a picture, or whether it's, if they're gripped by you, you're looking at them, the lights are on them, whatever, whatever this engagement is. And I think that's what makes people that have come from performance backgrounds, really interesting in other spaces, because they have this complete, like process of like, I guess, a dramaturgical process ingrained in them. And loads of like, the art students didn't really think about that, which I thought I was like, why and or thinking about the audience, that do not care how someone's going to receive your work. Like, that's like, for me, that's a really interesting bit. Like the really interesting bits, just like in between space between like, the work, whatever that be, and the person receiving it, like what happens in that space. Like, that's when it's politicized. That's when conversation has sparked. That's when we like, evoke emotion. Like it's this, like invisible space. And that is now where I guess my work now, lies is like in that interaction, like what is happening in that space?
Jessica Altchiler
Will you tell us more about what work you're doing now? Yeah.
Kaia Goodenough
Well, at the moment, actually doing a lot of writing. And so that has been my main sort of, like creative outlet of the moment is writing and exploring mainly looking at different forms of like, love, and but love for a partner and love for friendship and how they can be equal. And what is like what is romance within the many different layers of relationships we have through life. And the importance of friendship in that way, as well. And how you can have many, many loves. So I've been doing quite a lot of writing about that recently. And then I'm also working together with my friend. And we've doing like a music jam at the moment, which has like visuals and Sonic and we're hoping to have like movement, maybe in there and poetry's that becomes just this like melting pot of artists just doing stuff in a space and sharing and facilitating that emerging scene, which I think it's really exciting and interesting. And me, I've been doing a lot of like community collaging workshops, which actually came out of my masters with the collective that I started doing my Masters because we would all go to each other's houses and color us as just like, a way to hang out. And now we do it. That sounds so fun. Yeah, and it's really meditative. And it's really lovely, and you can just chat and collage and now we run monthly colors, nights that are free. And people just come and they sit and it's a nice way to like chat to people or meet new people or just like, not talk to anybody or talk to loads of people but just like, do stuff like that. So yeah, Yeah, hopefully more things. But just like, I've got my fingers in a few pies, as always in London? Yeah, yeah, it's nice. But like, yeah, at the moment, my main practice is writing, which I didn't really expect. But I think it has been a way that I've always managed to, if I'm not sure about how I'm feeling, and I know that you have this too, I find writing the best way to like, understand how I'm feeling. That maybe, yeah, doesn't feel super prescribed, like, I feel like I can just get it out.
Jessica Altchiler
When you are so hyper focused on one thing in your whole life, especially as a young person, you identify, oh, I'm a dancer and dance and says, I study and everything. It doesn't allow you the space to be exploring other things and other crafts and other modes of expression. And I know that your mom is an artist. And so I believe that there's probably a little bit more of the expressive artistic nature that you were surrounded by growing up, which I'm sure was very useful as you were navigating different things. But I am constantly trying to encourage people to look around at things that might make them a little bit curious. Even if it's not something they want to, you know, I'm not going to leave dance behind to go pursue poetry, but maybe writing a little poem could be useful in some way. And kind of like, if you whether or not you have a craft and art as your career, allowing for exploration, and messiness, and imperfection, and joy, dare I say, in different things. And it also makes me think about how I'm helping a couple of people now, with, I don't really know what to call it, but like social dancing, dancing, in social situations, how do I dance at a wedding? How do I dance at a bar, whatever it is. And what I always start off with is you are a dancer, you can dance, you have it in you, it is all about removing the layers and layers and layers of negative thoughts about yourself and what you're capable of, and what's expected of dancing in these situations. And all of that. So, so going to a club or just dancing around in your room, or taking out a piece of paper and drawing that tree that you see outside and actively practicing. Not judging it, not trying to grade it in some way. But letting it be free and letting it evolve into whatever. It has the potential to be for you. Yeah,
Kaia Goodenough
and I think could be useful. Yeah. So I always hate when people say something like, Oh, but I can't dance. I'm always like, everyone conducts everyone's a dancer, everyone can dance. But I don't say that to myself. Like if someone said to me, are you a dancer now I'd get because we have this like stigma of like, what we think a dancer is. Yeah, I'm like everyone could, I'd say to anybody that they're a dancer, but I wouldn't say to myself, but I'm coming round. Like I worked through that I think I'm coming round to be like, No, I am a dancer. I'm maybe not dancing professionally. But like I am a dancer and it will always be there. And I think there's such a stigma in the we train in this like one syllabus or not syllabus like one thing so that we go will be a dancer will be a sculptor will be a photographer will be a whatever, but actually being like creative crosses, all of those things. And that's when it's interesting, like interdisciplinary work is interesting for a reason. And that's because you're not in your just your lane, you're not in your specialism and we've been like told that we need to be a specialist, but I actually don't think we do. And I think it's because dance bridges this like athleticism. So it's a little bit murky, because you are trained to be athletically the best, but you're also a creative practitioner. And it's really hard to uphold both of those things. When in art school. People try something new all the time. Like they can be really medium agnostic to whatever is appropriate to that moment. And it's like having to learn that and I'm definitely have done that recently of like right now writing a is the right medium for me. But it might not be in like a year, it might be something else that feels appropriate to that thing that I feel like I need to explore, or I want to explore or that project that I'm working on, doesn't have to be. So like, what I'm a dancer. So I have to explore this through dancing. And I have noticed more that like people that go to art school, or just do it in like, whatever medium. They're not so like stuck on the museum that they have to do on, which also can, on the other hand, sometimes be annoying when they all want to be dancers. And you're like I trained for three years. Yeah, no, I can be hypocritical too. But it's, yeah, there's not like, we don't, I think there would be such a positive move. If we came away from this, like, I'm training in this one thing. And there was like, a bit more flexibility in that. And more movement in that, or like an openness to allowing people to explore other things, or feel like they can over reclaim being a dancer again, I feel like that's what I've done.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, and there are two layers to that even because you have the component of you're a dancer. And it's even more narrower than that. Because you're usually have one specialty, or maybe a couple of specialties. But that one thing that you're really going for. So even within dance, we have that desire to stay in what we know saying what we're good at. So first you have expanding across dance, and like, oh, go take a class and something that you're not comfortable with, or that you haven't been studying for 20 years. So start off there. And then you have the additional layer of as we're talking about, go try to paint something, try to photograph something, try to do anything that feels like some form of expression, because honestly, we're all here trying to survive in this crazy fucking world. And if there's anything that we can do, to open ourselves up a little bit, heal ourselves a little bit more, better our mental health, our physical health in some way. And also just be more open, expansive human beings to then be able to empathize with those around us and make changes in the world and all of these things, just the more we can be open, open, open and find some empowerment and some form of expression that really makes us feel alive and connected to the world and not just isolated and closed off. Then we I think it'll benefit everyone, actually.
Kaia Goodenough
Yeah, for sure. Break the struggling artists narrative would be great. Yes.
Jessica Altchiler
We're trying. We're trying. Yeah.
Kaia Goodenough
Maybe we need some systematic shifts for that. But well, that's a completely other conversation. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah. And I would love to have that conversation too. So that'll be our our part two. But I think that's a perfect way to wrap this thing up.
Kaia Goodenough
Okay. Sounds good.
Jessica Altchiler
Thank you so much for this conversation.
Kaia Goodenough
Thank you so much for chatting to me stay super appreciate everything that you're doing. I think it's amazing that you're platforming, these experiences and voices and opinions and viewpoints of the industry because we don't really talk about it is a bit hush hush. And it's an incredible industry to be part of, but it's also got its flaws as well. And I think it's really important that we talk about them, because if we talk about them more than as a generation, we can make sure that it doesn't happen as much. Yeah, we can find more positive ways of existing within this incredible, incredible, creative world.
Jessica Altchiler
I love you.
Kaia Goodenough
I love you so much. I hope to see you very very soon. Maybe I hate that we have so many fees apart
Unknown Speaker
oceans hours apart,
Kaia Goodenough
but I love you loved
Jessica Altchiler
by them. Thank you so much for listening to the story project. It is a dream come true to get to share these stories with you. And I'm so grateful for every single guests and audience member if you're enjoying the podcast, it would be such a great help if you could do a couple things. First is to follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts. wherever you listen, the next would be to rate five stars and also give us a review. And finally, share any episodes that you like with the people that you love. This is a podcast for the community, and the hope is that it can reach as many people as possible from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for being here. Until next time,