Gabrielle Sprauve
Show Notes
Gabrielle Sprauve is a freelance dance artist and model spent 6 years dancing for Ballet Hispánico and is a founding and ongoing member of PARA.MAR Dance Theatre.
In today’s episode, Gabrielle describes her journey towards advocacy, what it takes to speak up for yourself and those around you, and what is required of a leader.
She also expresses what challenges she had to overcome in her training and professional life, the environment she creates for her own students, and what gifts can come from taking risks.
Follow along on Gabrielle’s journey: @gabriellesprauve_
Transcript
Jessica — Intro
Jessica
Okay, hi, Gabby.
Gabrielle
Hello!
Jessica
So we are here with Gabby Sprauve, who is an absolutely beautiful, incredible human and performer. And before we get into what she does on her resume and in her bio, my first thing I wanna ask you is, what would you consider to be your human bio? So how would you describe your bio off of your resume?
Gabrielle
Ooh, my human bio off of my resume. I would say if I'm just talking about myself and I'm not being super technical on paper, I am an artist and an advocate. And in my past couple of years of being part of a dance company, I've definitely become a leader, which is something that I fell into. I didn't, I didn't try to be a leader, but it just kind of naturally fell on my lap and I love it. I am someone who likes to hold great responsibility and availability and power like that, but have it and know about it in the right way, in a positive way and in a nurturing way because I have experienced power being abused. So I would say that's my human bio off of my resume. And then there's the technical stuff. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is incredible and perfectly describes you. So beautiful. So before we hit record, we were immediately diving into where you are now. And instead of starting at the very beginning, why don't we start with what's happening for you right now in this moment, where you are, and then we can go backwards.
Gabrielle
Yeah, for sure. So right now I am in my last month with my dance company, Ballet Hispanico. I've been with the company for six years and I just have a little like less than a month actually. I have like 28 days left with the company and I am definitely in a time of transition. I'm excited. I'm all of the emotions. I'm, you know, a little bit sad to leave in a way because of the bond that you create with the dancers there and how used to traveling you get and being able to kind of share your gift around the world. But I know I'm still going to be able to do it just in a different way, maybe less frequent, but I'm okay with it and I'm very content. And I'm just moving into many different things. I'm going to freelance for a while. I'm going to teach. I am also modeling. I have a modeling agency so I'm gonna start doing that more. I also started a course with the New York Institute of Art and Design to get my certification in interior design. Yeah, so I'm gonna be doing that. My friend Lawson is actually an interior designer which you know and he we've been amazing friends you know for years, and he's gonna help me out and wants to kind of bring me under his wing. So I'm gonna be dipping my toes in many different things. And yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm in a time of transition, a little bit of a question mark for some of the future, but in a good way. It keeps me keeps me on my toes.
Jessica
Yeah. And being in that kind of full-time intensive company with rehearsals and performances and travels and everything that you've done for six years, right? That's what you said? That's wild. And you did it right out of school.
Gabrielle
Yeah. I sure did. I got my contract like three months before we graduated and then I started not too long after we graduated. So it's just been all I know.
Jessica
Wow. So Gabby went to Marymount with me. That's how we know each other. And we didn't have too much overlap. A couple classes.
Gabrielle
Just a couple classes, our main one, I think was my first year and it was ballet. And we were going to the Graham studios for like a walk away from the main building. And Nick was in that class, I remember that.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Nick has gotten a couple of shout outs on this podcast already. He's a he's a main character in many of our lives.
Gabrielle
Yes. Oh, I'm sure. I'll never forget. Never forget. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
So let's rewind now a little bit. Can you tell us about how you were trained growing up, how you came about dancing and being an artist and everything kind of leading up to your time at Marymount?
Gabrielle
Yeah, so I started dancing when I was three. I was really little. And my mom always says that like, it was just a natural thing. And she knew I needed to go into classes. They would put music on and I would be choreographing and making everyone watch me dance and put on shows. So I started when I was really little. And I mean, from three years old, like I was going to classes two times a week very consistently. And by the time I was a little more, like a little older, I just stuck with it. I trained in ballet pretty heavily, classical ballet. For most of my childhood, I wasn't introduced to other styles. So I would say I was like 10 or 11, but ballet was a big focus for me at that time. I didn't know, you know, all the things that were out in the world dance wise. So I trained in Savannah, Georgia for the most part. I was born in Queens, New York. So the first couple of years of my childhood, I trained at a school in Queens, a really small school in Jamaica, Queens. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was about seven and I started training at a school there where the name has changed many different times. But I had couple of main teachers there growing up that I just kind of stuck with whenever they would move to a new studio I would just kind of hop to that studio with them and I would say my most inspiring training was when I had like my first black teacher her name was Sylvia Waters I had her for a few years she's the one that put me on pointe shoes. And then after that, James Atkinson, another black teacher that I had who made me the first African American Clara in Georgia, which was a pretty, yeah, pretty awesome thing. And then after that, doing a summer program with Dawn Axam, another person who pushed me in my training. And then I went to Savannah Arts Academy for high school. And eventually I was...
Jessica
Wow.
Gabrielle
doing that and still training at my studio after school. And I did that up until I would say my junior year. And then I mainly danced at my high school, got into Marymount, got my BFA at Marymount, and then started with BH. And it's been a whirlwind. I grew up doing a lot of summer programs at Graham and Alvin Ailey, and just trying to be a little bit of everywhere, but also, trying to spend my summers mostly in New York because I was definitely a New Yorker at heart, even though I moved when I was very little. So yeah, that was my training. I'd say I give responsibility to my training to many different teachers and many different areas of my life that they came at the right time. Definitely there for a reason and for a season because it's just how life works. But yeah.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
That's been my training.
Jessica
It's so beautiful how any random person can make a lifelong impact on you, even if you take one class with them. It's incredible.
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm, absolutely. I actually, I recently, I had um, when I was really little, I think I was maybe 10 or 11, my teacher at the time brought in Ted Pola and he used to dance for Alvin Ailey for years and he was another like, I think he was the first black male teacher that I had when I was really young. And I'll just never forget, like, he walked in, and I was just, my eyes were so wide, and I was so excited, and he really gravitated towards me, and he choreographed on us, he taught us alvin Ailey rep, like, he taught us Wade in the Water, and it was such an amazing experience. And I was so little, and then years went by, and we lost touch, I never saw him again. But we have this picture of when I was that age that he has that I have. And fast forward to being in the company. One of my best friends, Antonio Cangiano, he's Italian. When he came to the States, you need a sponsor if you're coming to the States to do any sort of work in terms of your visa. Ted Poland, that teacher, was his sponsor when he first came to the States.
Jessica
Wow.
Gabrielle
And recently he was going to meet up with him and Ted had sent him like a picture of when, you know, a time when he was teaching little kids and how much he loved it. And I was in the picture and Antonio sent me the picture and he was like, is this you? And I said, oh my God, that's Ted. So just a couple of weeks ago, I mean, and like, it's like 16, 17, like years later. We met up and I had dinner at his house and I was able to talk to him and thank him for being one of those people in my life and my training at such a young age and just tell him how important that was and that he did more than his due diligence and his job. He cared and he did it well and that was something that stuck with me. I was like, here I am at your house having a cocktail now, years later.
Jessica
That's incredible.
Gabrielle
So yeah, that was pretty cool. Full circle moment I had recently. I think I came at a really beautiful time too since I'm leaving the company and I was able to talk to him and confide in him and get advice about moving on and stuff like that. So it's pretty amazing.
Jessica
It shows that whether you are someone's colleague or their mentor or their teacher, director, choreographer, that you have immense power to change someone's life in one sentence, in one piece of encouragement. And I think we can all look back and think about those people in our lives who have encouraged and then people who have done the opposite.
Gabrielle
Absolutely. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Jessica
And it's really, really significant. You have so much power to impact someone around you.
Gabrielle
Absolutely, that's something I really, you know, now that I'm older in my career, I teach a lot. And my favorite age to teach is like pre-professional students, college age, or just like young adults who are trying to figure out this world. And I think that's my favorite age to teach because I now have the ability to be honest with them about what they're walking into, be honest with them about my experience and the things I had to learn. And my biggest thing is that I have power when you're at the front of the room. You know, like they're all there to be inspired and they're looking at you. So when you know you have that responsibility and that power, what do you do with it? And how do you not take advantage of the fact that you hold the microphone like that?
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
And something that I made a vow to myself is to never treat them the way that I had been treated sometimes in certain areas of my life, training and not manipulate them, you know, and play head games and be rude and threaten them. Like, you know, I don't, it's not something that one comes naturally to me, which thank God, it just doesn't come naturally to me. But also, that was so discouraging for me.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
I have to do so much work to dismantle that crap in my brain so that I could dance my fullest and be my fullest self. And honestly, it took me like a while to get that out of my body and out of my mind. And sometimes I think back and I'm like, oh man, you know, I feel like what's, what kind of dancer could I have been earlier on if I wasn't spending so much time getting out the manipulative head game stuff that was put on me. You know, so it's definitely it's something that I feel like people have to make sure they understand when you hold that power what you're doing with it and how you are managing it because you can't just say anything and do anything. It's just not okay. And I'm always an advocate. I always tell them self-worth is imperative. Like when I'm teaching, actually this past week, I was teaching them something so hard. One of our reps in the company is not easy to get and they didn't have a lot of time to get it. And they would be doing the choreography and trying to get this step. And they're like staring at me to see if I'm, you know, like upset or like is She looking at me and I stopped the music and I said, guys, don't ever let someone at the front of the room hold that much power over you and your dancing and what you're here for. I was like, I'm not here, you know, with a contract in my hand doing eenie meenie miney mo who could potentially get it. I was like, that's not my role here. And even if I was, that's not how I would go about it at all. I was like, you guys each have a place here. You have a purpose.
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
You're here for a reason, it's to learn, it's to grow. Don't ever let someone at the front of the room get in the way of that. I was like, don't look at me, look at yourself, notice yourself, feel it in your body. And then I told them, I said, trust yourself. Trust yourself, trust the training that you've done, put it into work, and then you will feel like you are 100% you. Instead of being, you know, 50% you, and then there's another 50% of someone else in your head and the things that they're telling you were worrying about how you look. I was like, we're not. I said, whenever you're in the room with me, we're not doing that. You can chill, you can relax, you can trust. And that was a big, and then like the way that the room shifted, it's, it's insane. And then you get even better results. Like I turned the music on and it was even better. And I was like, okay, that's what I need. You know, like that's, that's how we move forward.
Jessica
Yeah, I could not agree with you anymore across the board, both personally in my own experience and what I offer my students. I am completely aligned with what you're saying. And it reminds me of how I still hold so much resentment and anger and sadness towards how some experiences that I had in my training, specifically in college, and how I am still trying to overcome that.
Gabrielle
Oof, yeah.
Jessica
And I also say to myself, what could I have done and who would I be had I actually just been encouraged the whole time? Had I not been so fearful to make a mistake? And something I write about very frequently is this contradiction where in school in particular, we would be asked to move through space with abandon.
Gabrielle
Mmm.
Jessica
and express and be free and be big and all these things. But we were terrified to do anything. And also there was the pressure to keep your body small and be a responsible, good student. That's not, you're being pulled in totally different directions. Saying, be free, be free, go dance. Be big, be you, but don't actually be you, because your body is not good enough and the way you're moving is not good enough and you're not actually gonna be able to succeed in this industry in this way. And to hear you say this with this beautiful, booming career that you've had and that even you have had to overcome that, I think is so important for people to hear, because you might not assume that from the outside.
Gabrielle
I agree, I agree, especially because I've also been someone that I naturally look like the typical or the quote unquote desired dancer. And that's something that I also made sure I have been very aware of in terms of keeping my eyes and my ears open of what is, you know, has been said to me, but then it trickled out because of the way that I grew into my body and this and that and whatever. But I still kept my eyes open and my ears open of what was being said to others that quote unquote had a different body. Like I don't even try and use those words, you know, in class. This past week, I was telling them, it's like there's a movement where you really have to sit in your plie.That's kind of an uncomfortable position, but you have to relax in it to really get the shape. And I was telling them, I was like, listen, I completely understand. It's hard. I said, you know, some of us have different abilities in our bodies. We may have a long Achilles, we may have a short Achilles, you know, I may have this, but you may have this. And I was like, nothing is, neither is wrong. Neither is different in terms of one's less than and one's greater than. I was like, it's just that we're all humans and humans were created differently in the way that it's not a bad or good thing. And the way that we all just have our special abilities. We have our special things. And so I told them, I was like, for me, like, this is a very uncomfortable position, but I find my way and the way that my body is able to do it and how I feel good and how I feel comfortable. And I can still execute the movement with myself. And I was like, so you guys just have to discover, okay, how does, how does this work for me? And the way that I like, what's my structure? How do I make it work for me? Make it still be something that I think is beautiful because you might not think it's beautiful. But what do I think? How do I feel? You know, you may not give me the job. I shouldn't fully care and put that much power in that. I just want to make sure that I feel like I'm doing the most with myself and that's it. So I was telling them, you know, try not to look at your neighbor and be like, man, they're doing it and I wanna do it just like that. I was like, don't try and think of it in a self-deprecating way. I was like, learn from each other, take little things and you're like, you know, I love how I do this, but I wanna do it like her. Or I love how I do this, but then I wanna take this from this person. And I said, but only make sure
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
when you're doing that in your head, it's in a positive way. It's not in a self-deprecating way. And I, again, like when I'm teaching, I try and notice those things. And I also try to make sure that I don't have biased eyes as well, because we grew up in this training that almost, you may not believe it in your head, but it's almost like a subconscious was created for you.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
and you have to like get rid of it and wipe it away. So I also try to make sure that I root, for lack of better words, for what other teachers would consider the underdog in the room. It's another thing that I make sure I am doing and doing well, because it's always that
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
quote unquote underdog where I'm actually looking I'm like man you're fierce you know like you're fierce but because of dance you know society and dance but they think you know a dance body is supposed to be or a dance body is supposed to look like a lot of people wouldn't look your way twice and that's so messed up it's so messed up and it's like it's just a vow that I
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
made to myself and I'm really trying to make sure I'm constantly staying true to. Because I don't like when you know you also walk, you talk a big game but you don't like put it into action. So I also try and keep myself in line.
Jessica
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think about that for myself because I loved ballet in high school. It's all I wanted to do. And when I was in eighth grade, I remember this so clearly. I was looking into the window of like the older kids ballet. And one of the dance, like a dance mom came up to me. And she said to me, you know, it's a shame because you're so good at ballet, but you're never going to be able to do it.
Gabrielle
Wow.
Jessica
I was like, Oh, right. It was the first time it really clicked that yeah, I don't have this body that's conducive to ballet and so I'll never be able to actually pursue it. And that's absolutely the truth in terms of what exists currently. And I, and it made sense because yeah, I started Pointe and I immediately got Achilles' tendonitis, like my body was just not built for it. I mean, for, for what existed. But
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Jessica
the more I reflect on it now, I'm like, why can't I just do ballet for fun? Why can't there be some show somewhere where I can do ballet and I don't have to look like all of the ballerinas? But I love it and I can do it in my own way. And I think I would be really curious to hear what you felt in school because like we're talking about the difference and having something that like these teachers stereotypically define as a successful body or movement quality, whatever it is. But for most people, it's not about, I felt that in school and in many programs, they lack understanding how to nurture the artist and the dancer and what is possible and they
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
for better or for worse, like whether it's a box that they think is wonderful or a box they think is horrible, they put you in these boxes. So I'd be so curious to hear about what your experience, what I know it's a very big question four years and a very intensive program, but maybe you could just touch upon some things.
Gabrielle
Yeah, you know, my experience was interesting. I technically, in technical terms, I had a great-ish experience. You know, like I was seen from day one by one of our modern teachers, Nancy Lushington, and She was definitely like a big, you know, in my years there, like she loved me and she pushed me and this and that. And I had a couple of teachers that were like that. But the main ones that made a difference in my life were my teachers of color at Marymount, my Pedro, my Juan Carlos, my funny Flavio and Ms. Commendedor, those were honestly my pillars for me personally. I don't know anyone else's experience, but for me personally, they kept me going in terms of being able to have real conversations with them about the fact that sometimes in college I wondered if I was just a token in terms of marketing and advertisement because I just so happen to be an amazing dancer who was black. And our program really needed to be diversified and it still needs to be diversified.
Jessica
Yep, desperately.
Gabrielle
And I still check in every now and then. And honestly, soon I'm planning on writing them because I want to, now that I'm getting out of BH, I wanna be more involved and helping diversify that program and really getting them to understand what that means. You know, it doesn't mean that I need you to offer African classes and replace a ballet. I just want you to be teaching ballet and accept and learn how to teach certain bodies that you think don't belong in ballet. I want to completely dismantle that kind of structure. I don't need to, you know, go back to King Louis, whatever, and say that we can't do the plie or the tendu like this. Like, I don't, that's too much. It's already, it's grounded. It's there at the end of the day. It's dope training that we need. It's a foundation. Like, boom, I accept it. But how are we teaching it? So yeah, I, I just, the only thing I struggled with in school was just going back and forth feeling like, am I this token or do you really love me for me? And I think I went back and forth just because I saw so many students of color in that program that I think should have shined more and been given more opportunity. And I think that, you know, we should have been talked to more and asked, Do you feel safe? Do you feel seen? Do you feel understood? How could we do better? What could we do more of? And not just think that you know, you're doing it and not think that you're doing it just because you have someone like me like and I felt this This like Pressure in a way sometimes because I was given a lot of attention and I was given a lot of opportunity. At the same time, I still had to work hard for it. Like I was in offices, like I want to be in ballet five, you know, by the time I was in sophomore year. And I went to Juan Carlos and he was like, all right, we're going to work towards that. I'm going to get you, like, we're going to get you in ballet five. And I worked hard and I, I try not to take anything from myself that I did put that work in. But I also know that I was a beautiful dancer, a beautiful black dancer who also did pointe and this and that and also was very good at modern. I know that I was incredible for marketing in a way. I knew that. I just wanted to see more of us being given that attention and that was something that when I look back at college was the one thing that bothered me, which is why I've gone back to talk about things like this and I try and stay in touch, I try and check in. I try and let them know like something that would have really changed me was having more teachers of color. I had one black woman at the front of the room while I was at Marymount and she was a sub for Horton. It was just a sub. Karen, I remember her, just a sub. And we needed more, you know, we needed more. And that was something that I wish could have been better because it was like, I was still dealing with things from my childhood. I came to New York because it's New York and I'm thinking this must be better. Because it's New York, you know, like there's everybody that looks like everything and speaks every language is here. Then I got to Marymount and I'm looking around and I'm like, wow, it's a lot of like, a lot of white faces, not a lot of me.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Mostly white faces.
Gabrielle
And then there were mostly white faces. And then the ones that look like me started with me in freshman year and then they kind of trickled out. And that was, yeah, that was definitely my experience and something that I am still trying to find a way to make sure I have a bigger foot in the door there. Because I want to help the next generation. Like I want to make sure that people get there and they feel more seen than I did. It's a big, it's a big thing for me for sure.
Jessica
Yeah, and then you very clearly continued with this kind of advocacy spirit with Ballet Hispanico. Can you talk about that?
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm, I did. Yeah, so we are the largest Latinx dance organization, and we are really big in, you know, doing a lot of community arts partnership work. And, and our mission is to bring a bigger voice, not just to Latinx people, but BIPOC people. And it's a beautiful mission. One of my favorite things is that I was able to be in a company that not only dance-wise and movement-wise, is doing a lot of things that I love, but we also have the opportunity to go out in the community in every state that we go in, every different city, and it doesn't matter where we are, you know, it could be the most uncomfortable to the most comfortable place, but we go. You know, we've gone to teach in jails and juvenile detentions, we've gone to just really eye-opening areas and parts of the states and around the world. So I was able to continue and definitely found my voice a little more within advocacy being with BH. And it started with, you know, our community work, me finding my voice in that advocacy. And then it started with looking and seeing, oh, how could we do better, you know, as an organization, how could we do better as a company and making sure that I spoke up? And what I have been grateful for, especially within this past year is that I do feel heard in a way, like they, they listen and I appreciate that no one has heard me speaking up and gotten like offended or angry or anything like that. They, they, it's almost like they realized, Oh, you know what, you're right. Like, why don't we do something about this? Or why don't we try this in a different way? So that's been nice because I would say as dancers, even when you get into the professional world, I think especially when you get into the professional world, speaking up is scary. It's it's very intimidating because you're at a point where, you know, when it’s school, it's like, what are you gonna do to me kind of thing? I'm paying my tuition, blah, blah. But now that you're paying me, you know, I have benefits here and I love being here and I don't want to speak up and get on anyone's bad side because then what about my career? What about my job?
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
It's not easy, you know, getting into an amazing major company and staying there for forever. It doesn't come like that for a lot of people. And I recognize how lucky I was. It was my first audition and I got the contract. I still had three months left in school.
Jessica
That's crazy.
Gabrielle
So I was able to spend those three months knowing I had a contract, which is insane. And I knew I was in this incredible position that I, like, I couldn't, I couldn't, you know, take for granted. So yeah, the fact that I had all that, it took me a while to speak up about certain things. But once I did, I'm really happy I did, because not only did they listen in a way and respond, and still, I'm still speaking up about certain things, and they're still responding, and we're having a back and forth that I think is so important, especially for an organization of color, to grow and actually break the barriers, not just externally, but internally.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
And I think it's something that organizations need to realize and look in the mirror a little more, like we are doing all this amazing work on the outside, but we also have to make sure that on the inside we're whole and we are talking to our people and we're making sure that we feel good and we feel seen and we feel heard and we're collaborating and we are working as a collective and as an actual union. So I'm definitely grateful for that part of it, but also the part that as dancers in the company, when I started to speak up, I started to see people finding their own voice a little more. And that's something that walking away from the company in this next month, if I can just leave them with anything it’s to continue to say something. If you feel like something's wrong or you think something could be better and you want to help and, if you, if you feel anything, you should say, you should say it because why not? Why not? And, I've been very much encouraging the dancers to do that more. And I, again, I started to feel that responsibility in a different way and that power in a different way in terms of leading and how I do it. And my main objective wasn't for me, it was honestly for them to find their voice. Like I was realizing I was starting to find myself and how freeing it was to
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
be like, you know, I want to go talk to my boss about this and why not? And I started to impromptu like knock on his door. I'd be like, Hey sir, just want to talk about this. And you know what happened? Our relationship grew and our relationship got better. And yeah, and we've had, you know, uncomfortable moments or uncomfortable conversations, but we got through the uncomfortableness to get to something more positive and lighter and freer that's on the other side. And I just wanted to show them, and I wanted to put myself in that vulnerable position for a second to show like, you know, this is actually good, this is how we grow. And you deserve to use your voice. You deserve to find that within yourself. We're in our early 20s, we're young. If we don't find it now, once we leave here, whatever we do next, I don't want to be walked all over. I want to use this as a platform to not only learn and grow, but to lead, to show that there is more possibility in what we do. We're not just robots dancing and doing movement. We're way more than that. We are articulate, beautiful human beings who have responsibility of teaching younger generations going into these communities and going into these schools and them looking up and being like, oh my God, I see myself on stage. And, you know, little girls coming up to me and saying, you look like my Barbie, because black Barbie dolls started coming out. And knowing that we are in that position of power and power that's mixed with love and unity and growth, it's so amazing to find your voice in that, and it's so worth it. So that's been like, you know, from feeling those things at school, and then now transitioning into being in the company, being there for six years, that's been my journey. And I'm very grateful for it, because whatever I do next, wherever I am, I think that I'm gonna be able to add something to that place because I was able to experiment at Ballet Hispanico in terms of getting my voice out and feeling heard and saying no, saying yes, saying no, saying let me think about it, saying actually, I think we could do this better or this better and then getting a response that was good or that, yeah, we need to work through it, but we're working through it and that's what matters. So that's been my career journey so far.
Jessica
It's so inspiring. And when you just, it's so hard to speak up and use your voice. And like you're saying, especially in this professional context, were there moments particularly at the earlier part of when you were starting to speak out about things where it didn't really go so well or you had to really push through a lot of fear in particular, just trying to give a little bit of inspiration to someone who might be really hesitant.
Gabrielle
Yeah… Yeah, I would say… There was like a moment where I didn't appreciate how we were being spoken to and led by a particular person at the front of the room. And it was scary because we…I appreciated the physical skills in terms of we were very, like we looked so clean and we were so on top of our game. But I couldn't get past the fact that mental health wise, we were being so affected. It was such a hard time for us because as dancers, we were trying to go back and forth of, but we look so good and we're so together and they have us looking so amazing as a group. But I'm going home and I have anxiety and this person's going home and they're bawling crying. This person had to get on antidepressants and they're trying to figure out why and realizing, oh, it's stemming from this. And I saw us going through many different things and I was like, this is not good. And it was a hard thing to bring attention to and speak up about because we had just never done that before in that way. And we had a way, an ideal of what we wanted. And I am, so we're a part of a union and I'm a union representative. So I have the responsibility of essentially bringing dancer concerns to the union or anything that we feel needs to be done or we need to go through the union with. I am one of those people, it's me and another person. So at the time, I not only had the responsibility of how I was feeling personally, but I also had a group of about 14, 15 dancers who were kind of relying on me to figure out how can we change this. So we did bring it to our union and they helped us out and the company did respond in a beautiful way in terms of trying to make sure we felt heard and figuring it out. The scariest thing for me was having a meeting and in that meeting actually feeling all of the emotions that I had been feeling. And it was in that meeting I broke down and I realized, oh, this is actually really affecting us in a really bad way. And it was at the end of that meeting that I made a very bold statement. And I was referring to this particular person at the front of the room and I said, you know, they either change or they go. And that's not for me to figure out. That's for you to figure out. They either change or they go. And that was a statement where I was like, whoa. Like it came out of my mouth and I was like, ah, okay, here we go. You know, I just pressed go on that ride. And it was a scary statement, not only because when it came out my mouth, I was like, shit, that is, wow, that's a big bold statement. But then I saw in the eyes of the people that I was speaking to, as soon as I said it, they were like, oh, okay. We need to make sure we're doing what we need to do and do better and help. And make sure that these dancers feel heard, they feel seen, they feel safe. We did not feel safe going into the studio and we didn't know how to bring it to anyone because we're not trained, we don't grow up in our training to speak up. We grow up to be quiet and just do it. Oh, it hurts so bad, okay, who cares, do it. Oh, I'm bleeding, it doesn't matter, work through it. Oh, I'm crying, it doesn't matter, wipe your tears, go on stage, do this. And from a young age, you know, from being little kids who's like, I don't want to do this. And they're like, I don't care. You need to go do it. You know, and you're crying and they're in the wing trying to get you to get the stuff. It's, you know, it starts from there. And then it just builds. So I would say that was, that was a big one for me. And I'm using they and very vague terms only because I also believe in not, I don't like to, demonize or go after people in a certain way.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
If I've seen that you have moved on to learn and grow and have hopefully gotten better, and for me, I wish anyone, if I've ever experienced that with someone, I actually wish you the best at the end of it. Because for me, I wanted to go about it in the way of I'm not trying to break you down. I want you to grow. I want you to like learn from this. I want you to do better and get better. And I hope that you do. And I hope that, you know, they did. And, you know, that role ended up shifting. They're no longer with us. And that was something that I know I had involvement in, but also I know it wasn't like my, I didn't have power in making that decision. I just had power in bringing it to the forefront and being like, you guys do what you will, but please know that we need something to change. Because if it doesn't change, we cannot be in this space. It's just too detrimental to us. And I'm really grateful for being heard out and action was taken. I'm grateful for the action. Sometimes I'm a little sad that we couldn't work through it because I also really appreciated the skills that they had in a certain way. I appreciated that they really pushed me. I mean, my dancing completely changed, you know, in those months. Completely changed. And I am grateful for that part of it, which is why I wish, you know, maybe things could have been done better and it didn't have to end like that, but also, you know, that's life. You know, that's, you never, life unfolds in different ways. So that was a big one. And I think what I can tell anyone is it's worth it. It is, it's worth it. But also I will be honest and say it is scary. It's very, very scary. You know, I still, even talking about it right now, I have a little anxiety, like, Oh, is someone going to hear this? And then are they going to think that I'm also like, you know, I don't care. I don't care. It's my experience. I am still being positive about it. I'm still being honest as well simultaneously. And for me, I'm still showing that there's possibility because we did it, which means that I'm showing us in a positive light. You know?
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
There was negativity, there was turmoil, whatever. There was some people messed up and this and that, but there's also the other end of it. And that has to be the focus of what we can do, how we can do it in the right way. Sometimes things fall, you know, pieces do fall and you learn from that how can we do better next time? And now that we're on the other side of it, you know, I'm grateful that we were heard and action was taken and that's what matters. You know, that's what matters.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. And it circles back to what you're saying when you tell your students how their self-worth is so vital and so important, because when we as artists and dancers believe that we just need to accept any scrap or any crumb that's given to us, then that's why people like that can stay in power and why they haven't been challenged before and they haven't had to change their behavior, because, Oh, well, I'm so grateful I'm turning into this beautiful dancer. And if that's what it takes for you to treat me like that, I will stick it out because I was trained to be a good student and a good girl and a good dancer. And I listen and I take it in. So the fact that the only thing that can possibly change the behavior of those people in power is the dancer, is the artist who says no.
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
who says, I won't sign up for this, I won't tolerate this. And like you're saying that it's extremely challenging, but it is the only way that it changes. And also when I think back to people in college specifically, that's where most of my pain and trauma in this industry and this art has come from, anyone who I still feel some kind of way about, I have a ton of empathy for them. I think all the time, how horrific was your experience that in all of the growth and evolution since you were training and dancing, you still couldn't come around to be kinder or more supportive or more understanding. You're still acting in that way and everyone's trying their best. Everyone's doing their best. So that's your best. That's the best that you're trying to do right now. And it's impacting me and my colleagues and my peers
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
and future generations that negatively. So, yeah.
Gabrielle
Yeah, yeah, it's a big one. It's a big one. And I do the same. I always think about, or I try and take into consideration where people come from, what's their background. We are the way we are because of the things that we've been through, the people that were in our lives. That's not, so I always take into consideration and have empathy for what made you the way that you are and what made you, you know, into this kind of teacher because you had that kind of teacher to the point where you're still talking about that kind of teacher, but you're not realizing that teacher and the way that you're talking about them and the things that you're telling us they used to say to you is very verbally abusive
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
Is very deprecating is very, you know, if I make you mad, you're gonna do better. I'm sorry, but actually, I don't work like that. I don't work like that. I just I don't. If you make me mad, actually, you're gonna make me come for you. And then that's worse. So you're actually screwing yourself over.
Jessica
Hmm
Gabrielle
because that's where we're at now. We're in a different time. And I will say the pandemic was a big awakening in the dance world in terms of people trying to speak up more and finding their voice. I want people to get back to that. I want people to get back to that mentality and that feeling of when we were at home and all we could do was think about how things should and should be better and could be better and using our voices and speaking out. And I wish that we could get back to that a little more because now that we're back to work and back to quote unquote normal, I think people are getting comfortable and we're forgetting about that fire that we have in us when we had time to sit and reel over these things and be like, you know, that's so wrong. That's so wrong. We should not be doing it like this. This should not be said to us. You know, I should not be asked to do this, you know, run this solo. And by the fifth time I'm like dying and you get in my face and because I'm not doing it the way that you think I should be doing it and you think it needs to be better and better even though by the fifth time I'm running it, my body is giving out and you get in my face and you say, are you present? And you step up to me and that happened to me and you step up to me and when you do that, you think that I'm going to be like, oh, I'm good at this and I'm gonna do a little blah. Because people have done that to you before, because you've abused your power and unfortunately you were with people that did not yet have that sense of self-worth and self-advocacy. But guess what, I did and I do. And you tried it with the wrong one.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
because it was in that moment where I was like, you know what, I see what's happening. I'm making the decision. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not watching other people go through this. I don't care who you are, what you've done, where you've been in life. I do not care because I see how this is not only negatively affecting us, but it's affecting our relationships with each other. It's affecting our relationships with our workplace. I don't wanna feel like I can't
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
say anything just because of this one person where there's actually people behind you that, you know, listen to us that took us into consideration. But we I had to get over that hump of that person to make sure that we were heard and seen and that they knew what was going on as well. Because and that's another thing. Sometimes it's like, no one knows what's going on. If you don't say anything, they think everything's okay. They come in and they see the end result. Yes, we look amazing. Yes, we look good. Yes, we're clean. Yes, we're this. The audience is happy. But what's happening in the inside? What's happening on our daily? And that was something that was happening on our daily and I had to, nope. Nope. And I'm happy. I'm happy I did it. It is a scary thing to talk about in a way, but for me, it's...It's vital for people to know that there is possibility and there is positivity in speaking up. And that it's so worth it. It is so worth it.
Jessica
Absolutely. Oh, you are the best. So what is exciting you about this new journey that you're about to embark on? And also what led to deciding to step away from the company?
Gabrielle
So what led to me to decide to step away, I think is just, I have so much in me that I just want to tap into different areas of myself. I definitely physically and artistically, I could be at the company for another four years. You know, I could be a 10 year, like my husband was actually. He just finished his 10th year with the company and I could definitely do that. I'm at the peak of my dancing, I would say. You know, I don't get nervous when I go on stage anymore. I don't. I feel good. I trust myself. It took me a minute to get there, but I got there. But I just there's so much more I want to do. There's so much different opportunities that I have had to turn down because I was with the company that I don't regret. I'm grateful for my time there. I'm grateful for what I've learned. I'm grateful for what I've been able to do there. And I am physically leaving as a dancer, but I am very, I want to make sure that my presence stays. I'm teaching and in whatever way, you know, I still keep my connection with my boss because I know how much power my voice holds and I don't want to, I don't want to leave that side of myself because there I'm able to tap into that advocacy part in a way in that community, you know, working in that community and I want to keep that. So I am ending as a dancer, but, You know, I want to make sure that I'm still keeping my toes in the door there, because it's an amazing organization. You know, our mission is incredible. What we're doing and what they're trying to continue to do is something that's so needed, and I just want to make sure that I'm, you know, I'm still going to stay part of it in some way. And then, you know, what I'm gonna do next, what I'm excited about, I think is kind of the unknown. I think is like, the kind of going where the wind blows and being okay with it and just doing, you know, different fun things. I recently went to like a Nike casting and I don't know if I'm gonna get it, but it was just something amazing, you know? They asked to see me and you're like, why not? And there's a company that I work for with my husband in Chicago called PARA.MAR and we love going there together because we get to dance as a couple. So I love to be able to tap into that and partner with my husband and experience dance in that way. I didn't get to partner with him too much in the company. It was something that we always wanted to do, but we each had kind of our, We call them our work wives and husbands in terms of partnering that we loved and we had been dancing with those people before we got together and meshed well. So we kept it, but we didn't get to tap into that side of us as dancers. So I'm excited to do that. And I'm ready to bring what I've learned in terms of self-worth and self-advocacy so far. I have spoken up in a very large organization. So I'm kind of like, if I can do that, then what can I do in smaller places that need help or that need to look in the mirror and need someone to tell them, like, you know, we could do this differently and we could go about this better. I'm grateful for the fact that I was able to use my voice in such a large organization. You know, it's not, it's scary. But I will say they heard me for the most part and I have to thank them and be grateful for that. That they continue to hear me but also appreciate that and see that I am also not one to really believe fully in cancel culture. And the way that, especially for our organization, we're just, we're doing too much good. You know, a lot of these places are doing a lot of good. So I'm like, I'm not, I don't want to dismantle anything. I want us to grow. And I want to be someone from the inside who knows what we do, who knows all the work that I see them putting in to say, hey guys, by the way, I think we could do this better. We should tweak this here because I don't want someone from the outside to come in and like ruin it, ruin what we're doing. Who doesn't know the ins and outs. Who doesn't know the hardship. Who doesn't know the racism that we receive. The doors that we have to try and knock down and the walls that we're trying to knock down, they don't know that side. So as someone from the inside who sees it and does know it, I want to be the one to have that conversation and start that conversation. So I...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
I'm excited to be able to bring that in different spaces, different realms. And then also I'm excited just to kind of have fun. You know, modeling is really fun. I've met really cool people. I've been on really amazing sets and I'm excited just to do more of that. I want to do more commercial work because I want to be able to go do a fun gig and then leave
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
you know, and be grateful for that time, and then go do a different fun gig and just be able to do that. All I've known since, as soon as I graduated from college, was this very clean and specific structure. And I am excited to just kind of shake it up a bit and have the question mark of life. I've never, in my career, I haven't had a
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
question mark. I've been very comfortable, very grateful, you know, for my, I know I'm going to get my weekly salary. I have amazing insurance. I'm traveling around the world. I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I'm so happy I was able to experience it right out of college because I actually think it gave me such amazing tools to be able to move on and just explore that part of myself. And I would, if any advice I can give to people who are thinking about doing something like that, yes, it is scary. I am nervous as all hell, but I'm also excited about the fact that I'm gonna be able to tap into different parts of myself. And that's really important. We have one life to live. So at some point you just gotta be like, all right, here I go. You're taking a chance.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
So yeah, I'm excited for that part of this new journey that I'm...
Jessica
Well, I cannot tell you how inspired I am and how much I love every time we get to talk, even though it's not that much, but I just love it every single time. You are such a brilliant, beautiful human. I said it before, I'll say it again. And I appreciate everything that you are and everything that you do. And I am so excited for you to embark on this new journey. You have so much that you've built already and now it's just going to keep evolving and I am so grateful that I get to keep watching and I hope we get to do stuff together. Maybe a little workshop or something.
Gabrielle
Oh my god, me too. Yes, I would love to.
Jessica
We're very aligned with what we teach our students so that could be a fun thing we can create together. Thank you so much and the absolute best of luck with absolutely everything that you're ever gonna do.
Gabrielle
Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, but also thank you for doing this. Like having a podcast like this, I think it's really important for people to be able to say things and feel comfortable because you never know who's going to hear it and you never know, you know, how it's going to change or help them. And so thank you for letting me be part of this. I'm really grateful.
Jessica
Thank you for talking to me about this for many years and for saying, okay, whenever you end up doing it, I'm ready. Whenever, years later. Okay, I love you. I'll talk soon.
Gabrielle
Yes, I know.
Gabrielle
Yes, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Love you too, thank you. Bye.