Austin Sora
Show Notes
Austin Sora is a professional dancer who has showcased her versatility through theater, concert dance, music videos, commercials, and work in the nonprofit sector. Her career has included performing in The Phantom of the Opera National Tour, dancing at Jacob’s Pillow with Bruce Wood Dance, assisting Marguerite Derricks, choreographer of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and becoming the Program Manager for the Broadway Green Alliance.
In today’s episode, Austin shares how experiences in her youth impacted her dancing long term, how her serious injury impacted her perspective on dance, and the unexpected joy of her simultaneous career in the nonprofit sector.
Austin and Jessica discuss the need to find and fight for supportive environments, the difference that kindness makes in audition rooms, and they both share their most embarrassing singing audition stories.
Follow along on Austin’s journey: @austin.sora
Transcript
Jessica – Intro
Austin Sora a proud Canadian based in NYC who has built a career in dance that spans theatre, concert dance, and commercial work. Described by Dance Spirit Magazine as the “dancer-textbook definition of versatile,” Austin has performed across North America with The Phantom of the Opera, at Jacob's Pillow with Bruce Wood Dance, in Lil Uzi Vert's "Demon High" music video and can be seen in commercials for Patrón Tequila, Society6, and Beachbody, among others. Austin's been a Show Supervisor for Step One Dance Company as well as an assistant to Marguerite Derricks, choreographer of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Austin's choreography was featured in Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS' 34th Annual Easter Bonnet Competition. As Program Manager at the Broadway Green Alliance, Austin co-authored the greener reopening toolkit and has lectured on sustainable practices at Lincoln Center, FIT, and Playbill's Curtain Up! festival in Times Square. Today Austin discusses the ins and outs of her versatile career, how a supportive environment is beneficial for everyone involved, and how healing from a serious injury changed her perspective on dance, taught her how to truly take care of herself, and brought her back to the joy of her career. Here is the radiant Austin Sora…
But we are here with Austin Sora, who is a magical jumping... I don't know why I said jumping. I was gonna say like jumping bean or something. Is that a thing? Jumping bean?
Austin
I'll take that. Yeah.
Jessica
a dancing artist, advocate, everything. She's just lovely. And before we get into the actual resume bio situation, I was wondering if you could start us off by telling us what your human bio is. So what exists for you as your bio off of your resume.
Austin
Um, yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Um, so I grew up just outside of Toronto, Canada in a town called Pickering, um, with my parents and my brother. And, uh, I grew up doing a lot of sports. Surprisingly, I did a lot of cross country running. I did, uh, I snowboarded growing up. Um, and yeah, it was a lot of fun. And, uh, I got into dance when I was about three, three years old, and have not stopped since then. Yeah, it's so funny when you said human bio, I was like, okay, birth, start with birth. This has to be detailed. Yeah, so I have been dancing my whole life. I graduated from high school and I went to college at Marymount Manhattan College in New York City. And I was actually just planning on being there for one year because as an international student, it was really expensive and my parents and I agreed that I would go for a year and then we would kind of regroup and see, you know, finances and whatnot. And we figured out that I ended up being able to stay for four years, which I was really grateful for Um, and it was one of those things that I like graduated and then I was like, okay, well, I have one year of what's called OPT that you can like stay in the country and work. So I was like, okay, so I'll stay for a year and then I'll go back. And then after OPT, I applied for my visa and I was approved. So I was like, okay, I'll, I'll stay for three more years and then I'll go back. And it's just kind of been that every kind of landmark milestone. I'm like, okay, this, this one more thing and then I'll go back. And it's been 13 years now. So
Jessica
Wow.
Austin
It's wild. I'm still here. Still kicking. Um, but yeah, still kicking, kicking bean.
Jessica
Still kickin'.
Hehehehe
the kicking, a kicking, jumping, bouncing bean. I don't know where that came from. Well, that's incredible. And I'm glad that selfishly you stayed for those years at Marymount because I would not have met you otherwise, or at least I wouldn't have met you then, but maybe there would have been some over left down the line. So what was your training like back in Canada before you went to Marymount?
Austin
Ha ha ha! That's true. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.
Austin
So I started out at a studio called PSB Dance Academy. And it was a ballet school primarily, although they offered, you know, all sorts of different genres of dance. And after, when I was in going into grade six, I auditioned for the National Ballet School and I was accepted. And so I moved away from home at age 10. Um, and, uh, I lived in their dorms and we went to school there and we trained there. And it was like a whole kind of college situation at age 10. Um, which I loved. It was like summer camp all the time. Um, and I was there for two years and then every year they kind of evaluate you to see if you are, if they want to re-accept you, it's not like an automatic thing.
Jessica
Wow.
Austin
And after my second year, they decided that my knees were little knobby knees and they weren't hyper extended and it wasn't the right line for classical ballet. So they said that I couldn't go to the school anymore. So I was pretty devastated and I went to another ballet school for a year or two after that, which wasn't the best fit. And so I moved back home and went back to PSB, the original studio that I was at, which was interesting. Cause at that point it had turned into a competition studio, kind of, though it still had pretty strong ballet roots. And so I was kind of thrust into the competition world halfway through high school, which was big culture shock. And I thought it was just a very interesting world to exist. But yeah, and then after that, I decided that I wanted to continue pursuing dance and I applied to Marymount, um, when I was graduating and continued down that path. But yeah, I jumped around a lot to different schools as, as a kid.
Jessica
Mm hmm. That is horrible that you got kicked out for your knees. I mean that and it's so classic. It's– unfortunately learning something like that so young probably has some kind of long lasting impact. Did you feel that at all?
Austin
Yeah.
Austin
Yeah, definitely. I think in a lot of different ways at different chapters of my life, I initially, I had a lot of conversations with my teachers and directors at the time at the school. And they were in their own way trying to be very supportive. And in hindsight, it's just interesting because that the ballet world is just so particular and has been for so many years. And I do hope that it changes but they were trying to be like, you know what, well, why don't you pursue, you know, like maybe you could do jazz, maybe you could do something else, maybe. And it was just at the time they were trying to be really supportive. And in hindsight, I'm like, I, I could have still done ballet. There was nothing I could, I can still enroll in classes. I can still take it. I can still pursue this thing that I'm passionate about. Um, and so I, I wish that part of the process had have been like, you can still do this, um, cause it took me a long time.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
and a really roundabout way to figure out that like, there's more than one path to get to where you wanna go. And just because this particular path wasn't gonna work, it didn't mean that I couldn't still get to that destination. And luckily I had a really strong support system at home and they, you know, kind of eventually we got there and they told me that and that I figured it out. But at the time it really felt like the world was colliding or it was collapsing and that what I wanted wasn't gonna be possible. And I was only like 11 or 12 at the time. So you just don't have that perspective to know, to like question things at the time. I was like, oh, that's just how it is, I guess. And I'll just have to be really sad. So yeah, it definitely gives me, I think to this day, a lot of imposter syndrome around like being in ballet spaces, but then also like
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
being in like more modern dance, musical theater spaces, I feel like, oh, but I'm the ballet dancer there. But then in the ballet world, I'm like the contemporary modern musical theater dancer. So it's interesting just kind of navigating those different identities and just clocking the fact that my brain wants to label these things when you're just a person, just doing different things. So.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Yeah.
Austin
Yeah, it's definitely been interesting to objectively just take a step back and see how that particular event in my life has affected how I view myself as a dancer and as a person. And I'm proud of myself for what I've kind of taken away from it and how I've navigated that, but it's definitely been challenging. And I just hope that because I'm sure that this still happens. And I hope that the ways that people deal with it and people like provide scaffolding for these young dancers has changed a little bit.
Jessica
How do you feel like that stuck with you as you went into college and do you feel like there was more support for who you because when I think of you I think of like one of the best ballet dancers certainly in school and I haven't really seen you perform since then but I saw you dance and perform a ton.
Austin
Oh, thanks, Jess.
Jessica
in college and you were just a ballet queen and I had no idea any of this backstory was happening so I'm curious how – Marymount had a fairly intensive ballet program especially if that's the trajectory you wanted to go down.
Austin
Yeah, I think that, I mean, I coming into Marymount with so much ballet, focus on ballet training, coming into a space that wasn't just a ballet school made me feel like, oh, I'm capable of doing this particular thing. And when I, you know, my freshman year, I was put in like a higher level and that, you know, gave me a little confidence boost. And I was like, okay, yeah, maybe I can do this. And I think that it was a really good fit for me in terms of a school because they had that as part of their foundation, but then they also had a focus on modern and contemporary. And so I think that it made me feel that because, I think because I was quote like good at ballet, and that was something that they valued that.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
all of the rep and all of the, like, I got cast in a lot of things because of that. But the things that I was getting cast in weren't necessarily like ballet pieces. And so I think that because they were like more contemporary, it made me feel like this one skill was like transferable, I guess, or like that there was more crossover than I had like previously realized. So.
Jessica
Hmm.
Austin
Yeah, I think it made me, I think that experience made me realize that things aren't just like black and white and that I have the capacity to like excel in more than one thing and more than one like genre I guess that I have divided them up in my brain.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Yeah. Were there any teachers or choreographers in particular that you feel like really helped nurture you in school and helped you see what you were capable of?
Austin
Yeah, I think in different ways that the faculty that were there, I think were generally really supportive of me, which I'm grateful for. And we're very encouraging and I think could see that I had put myself in this box. And like whenever we had little check-ins, they would always be like, you can do this, you know, you can like dig in a little deeper and like show different parts of yourself. Just as a whole, I think that was just a general kind of consensus or general like messaging I got from them, which really stuck with me.
Yeah.
Jessica
That's incredible. Yeah, I've had so many conversations with people from our school in particular. And there's a lot of people who walked out super broken and not feeling supported. And I just remember, you know, whether it was, I think a couple of years ago when we were talking and you were telling me about your experience. And I was like, I'm so grateful that you were able to have that much support because it shows that it's possible.
Austin
Right, right.
Jessica
shows that you can go into and walk out of a program like that and not be broken and be built up and supported. And it gave me a lot of hope. And so, yeah, I'm just very glad that you were able to have that experience. And then when you graduated from college, what was that experience like going into this? I don't want to say the real world, because that sounds so silly because your college world is a real world as well. So into the chaos of pursuing a dance and performing career. How was that for you?
Austin
Hahaha.
Austin
It was a very interesting experience. I think that there were a handful of people in my grade when I graduated who had jobs before we graduated and even like took time off school to go do those jobs. And I remember being like feeling behind. I think every graduate feels like that when you're kind of like, you know, it's like a race to get a job, which I hate. But I just remember being like, okay, I have to do something. I have to have something lined up. I have to whatever. Then I think a couple of weeks before I graduated, I ended up getting an apprenticeship with Buglisi Dance Theater, which is like a gram based company. And it was funny because it was like a year long, intern or not internship, what's it called? Apprenticeship. But it ended up being like one performance in the fall and that was kind of it. And so, I was like, I thought I had this like year long thing lined up, but really it was like a month. And so I was kind of like, oh shoot, I have to find something else. And because I only had the one year of what's called OPT, which is like you can, you're allowed to work in this country. It's not a visa, it's like this kind of in between thing that tacks onto your student visa. So you're allowed to work but it has to be directly related to your major, I think. I could work, but it had to be related to dance. So I was scrambling to try to find things so I could stay in the country. And I ended up getting a job. Wow, this is taking me back. I ended up getting a job at Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, Virginia, doing a Christmas show. And that was my first introduction to more theatrical kind of dance. And more, I don't want to say commercial because it's not a theme park, I don't know that I would say is commercial, but it was like a different part of the dance world that I didn't really ever consider pursuing. But I just was offered this job and I was like, sure, I'll do this. And I really enjoyed it. And I made some really great friends and it kind of opened my mind to what was possible. And I started pursuing musical theater a little bit more. And yeah, so I feel like my horizons were just opened a little bit. So that was really exciting and I started going to all different auditions. And it was just like an interesting year of just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what stuck, I guess. And it was, I think it also taught me that, again, I could like, I was capable of doing different things and more than just one thing, and that I still to this day put myself in a box and
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
I just have these reminders like every couple years of being like, you can do things that, you know, are outside of this box you put yourself in. And so I feel like that was kind of my first lesson in that or a continuation of the lesson, I guess, from college. But yeah, wow, this is like therapy I'm realizing. So I'm like, oh yeah, I guess I do think that.
Jessica
That's the right vibe. Yeah, I'm always thinking about and writing about the boxes that I'm putting myself in. So I really resonate with that phrase in particular, because it's so easy to get stuck. And then when you think you're getting out of one box, you realize you're just putting yourself in another box.
Austin
Yeah. And I think that to this day, I'm like, Oh, I think I found my fit. I think I found what I am good at. And then I'll find something else and be like, Oh wait, maybe that wasn't the right thing. And I'll be like, Austin, it's not a box. Like it's just a constant thing that I'm battling, but at least, at least I'm aware of that. I think that's a big thing, but I think we all do that.
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica
Yeah, well, can you tell us about your, you've had very varied job experiences between your work in Dallas and on a tour. So if you could just tell us about that, because that's already showing that you don't exist inside of a box. And you also have your other work that you've done too. So just, if you could just tell us about all the different colors and textures of Austin Sora and her professional world.
Austin
Yeah. It sounds like a children's book. Yeah. So I ended up getting a spot at Bruce Wood Dance in Dallas, which is a modern company. And it's largely the work of Bruce Wood, who was a modern choreographer. He worked with Twyla Tharp and Lar Lubavitch and just he was a phenomenal choreographer. And I love, love, love his work. I wish it was more widely known. So I danced with them for three years and it was such beautiful work, I loved it. But I really missed New York a lot. And so I came back to New York and decided I wanted to pursue musical theater. And when I came back, I ended up booking the Phantom of the Opera National Tour. And that was just, it was such a wonderful experience. It was like one of the best years of my life. We toured around to these fantastic cities. It was a very cushy contract. It was the first time I was getting paid as much as, or realized that, you know, you could make a cushy living as a performer. And that was very eye opening. And just performing in a musical was very different being around actors being around, these enormous crews and sets and everything was just
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
such a different experience. And I felt like a fish out of water, just like having to Google what different people's jobs were, because I didn't know the pecking order. I didn't know like the hierarchy. And I didn't know like who to go to for what. And I would like ask one person something, and they would be like, oh, that's actually not my job. And I just was so, I had no idea what was happening. So that was a big learning experience. I loved it. And.
Jessica
Yeah.
Austin
Yeah, so those two jobs back to back were very, very different. And I loved both of them in different ways. And yeah, and then on top of that, I have had this kind of like side career that I took a minor when I was in college in arts management. And I just decided that, you know, it was a smart thing to do. After I'm done dancing, I'll have these skills and I can like have this glorious admin career when I'm done dancing. And that was always kind of like the plan. And I've ended up kind of having these simultaneous careers because I've been working in the nonprofit sector since I graduated kind of pretty consistently. I started out with, while I was still in college, the Clive Barnes Foundation, which is now the Clive and Valerie Barnes Foundation. I was working there and then I hopped over to Arts Ignite for several years, which is a fantastic arts education organization. And now I work as the program manager for the Broadway Green Alliance, which is at the intersection of sustainability and theater. And it's kind of two things I'm very passionate about. And I love that I'm able to kind of do this work while still pursuing performing, especially in these organizations that are in the arts and they feel adjacent to my performing career, but it's not completely the same thing. There's still overlap, but it's great. And I like to use that part of my brain and I like to help people. So that's nice. I think my family, I grew up in a family that was very involved in nonprofits and in community work, and that's kind of just like a part of who I am. And so the fact that I'm able to do this work while I'm
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
performing at the same time is Something I didn't know was possible and it's been a nice surprise.
Jessica
That is so inspiring to me because something I've been writing and thinking a lot about recently is how I feel like I'm not helping enough and there's so much suffering in this world and there's so much that can be and should be changed and I don't know how to navigate doing these things that fuel my soul, like starting this podcast and my teaching business and acting and these things with something that feels like tangible good doing. And what I've reflected on is that I'm still unraveling so much trauma and so much pain. And there's so much time and energy that artists have to spend on utter bullshit that doesn't matter. Like...
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
worrying about knobby knees or worrying about bad feet or whatever it is. And having to focus on that and be so down about that and have that be something that occupies space in our brains is such a waste. And so it makes me so angry that we've had to waste so much time on that, but it also is so inspiring and feels so hopeful to hear
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
the work that you're doing because it is possible to both make a direct impact on people and also continuously improve yourself and pursue what you want to do in a performance setting. So I really am always astounded by you, but I love the work that you're doing. And I think that that's a huge part of why I'm so desperate to help artists heal and feel supported because we do have this desire and desperation to help and better the world, but we're so preoccupied with our own pain frequently that we don't have the ability to go out and do that work. So the more we can heal ourselves and heal as a community, the more we have the energy and the time and the heart space to go and do the kind of work that you're doing.
Austin
Mm hmm. Well, I think also with that said, I think that, you know, you as a teacher have such a capacity to help other people. And I think you're I think you're talking yourself down a little bit there because I think that you do have a tremendous impact on people. And I know that I've been really inspired by you and the way that you like navigate your friendships and navigate your student teacher relationships and how thoughtful you are as an associate. And I just know that everything you do, you do very, very thoughtfully. And I think that sets an example for me and for whoever else you cross paths with. And I think that there's, yes, there's like a very tangible way to help as a volunteer or like to, you know, donate to a food bank or something like that, which are wonderful and necessary. But I think that like, the way you live your life is also helping people. And I don't think you should discredit that.
Jessica
Thank you. You’re gonna make me cry. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I love you so much. I'm inspired by you. I was so happy that you agreed to do this with me today because you're just a true light in this world across the board. And not to now bring it down, but I really want to hear about this
Austin
Yeah, no, it's true.
Austin
Yeah, no, it's true. I'm very inspired by you. I love you.
Hehehe
Jessica
horrible freaking injury you just had and the immense strength and patience that it took to overcome it and to be where you are dancing again now. So I can't imagine what an emotional, emotionally and physically challenging experience has been for you. And I've just been like cheering you on over here. Not that there's anything I can do to heal your achilles, but you know, yeah.
Austin
Oh, thank you.
Austin
Yeah, it was a rough time. So in May of 2022, I was at an audition and I very unexpectedly, partially ruptured my Achilles tendon, which was very strange. I've never had Achilles issues in the past. And so it was just like a very scary thing. I had irritated it the week prior and was kind of like babying it a little. And I was like not really thinking anything of it because I've never had an issue with it before. And I just went to the audition and it just suddenly like, I felt a little pop. And it wasn't like something that I thought rupturing your Achilles would feel like. Mind you, it was like a partial tear. So it wasn't a whole thing. But I was like, huh, that was weird. And so I just kind of hobbled over to the side of the room and I like snuck out the door and just sat in the hallway and was like, that was strange, but this kind of hurts. And so I like hopped back in and was like, okay, I'm gonna go, but thank you so much. This is so fun. And I was at city center and my friend, Emma came and rescued me because I couldn't walk. And so she brought me an office chair from another floor and I, she wheeled me around city center and down to my doctor. Um, and yeah, I found out it was partially torn, which was a huge shock. And uh, it was a lot of just waiting for it to heal because you can't start any PT or rehab until it's healed. Um, luckily I didn't have to have surgery. So that cut off a lot of the waiting time, but I was in a boot and like not able to really do anything for maybe four months, three months, four months. So it was not great. I watched a lot of TV. I did a lot of work. And I mean, the silver lining was that because I wasn't able to dance or perform, I didn't need to be in New York. And so I was able to spend a lot of time with my family. I was in a long distance relationship and I could go visit my boyfriend. He was out on tour. Luckily he's back now, so that's not a thing anymore. But yeah, so I got to spend a lot of time with people I loved, which was really the silver lining of everything. But it was really hard to be, kind of feel really separated from the dance community.
Jessica
Good.
Austin
And to, you know, I deleted Instagram for a long, long time because it was just making me sad, just comparing myself to other people and getting some FOMO and all that. So just mentally that was really challenging. But it was interesting because at the same time, I felt a little bit of relief not having to audition and not having to hustle. Because just kind of in the same way that I felt during the pandemic was like
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
I, if I was like quote unemployed or like auditioning and like not booking a job I was sad because it was because oh I'm a bad dancer like I'm not the right fit or whatever. But if I had an excuse, as in like the pandemic or an injury then it wasn't my fault, quote quote quote, that I was unemployed. And so that was weirdly just an interesting thought that crossed my mind that I have clocked.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
you know, there was a time that, and kind of around that time that those thoughts were happening, that I was like, I feel relieved that I don't have to be hustling and auditioning right now. Like maybe I shouldn't do this anymore. And I decided that like I wasn't gonna dance anymore. I sold all my leotards. I was like, you know, it's truly, I was like, yeah. I told a couple of my friends that I have made this decision. I applied to a bunch of corporate jobs. And then I started PT. And...
Jessica
Wow.
Austin
I felt in control again and I felt like I was making progress and the progress was quick. Like it was astounding just after the amount of waiting. Once you start strengthening, like your body is smart and it learns and adapts really quickly and so I was like, oh, this is actually fun and I like this and I like having something to work towards and maybe I do want to dance. And I got back in the studio finally and I was like, oh, actually
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
I guess I do love this. I kind of forgot how much joy that dance brings me just for myself. And I was like, okay, I guess I have to find some leotards and have to find like, you know, I think I do want to dance now. And I remember like when I finally could get to a place that I was like back in New York, back auditioning, those first couple auditions were like the most fun I've ever had dancing in my life. And I was like,
Jessica
Wow.
Austin
Oh my God, like it was like a light bulb that I was like, oh auditioning can be fun. Like dance can just be fun and it can be, you know, I didn't care if I booked anything, there was no pressure. And it just like gave me this whole new perspective that I was not expecting. And so I feel like I kind of have like fallen in love with dance again, which is nice. And yeah, that was a big takeaway. And I was like, damn it, why did I have to like have this year long injury to learn this? But I did. And, um, I'm grateful for it, even though it was really hard.
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica
Yeah, that's an enormous point that I always try to make to my students. Like, if I catch someone that's a really hard worker and I go up to them, they're not, they're like ninth grade, 10th grade. And I go up to them, I'm like, so what do you do for fun? They're like, what? Like, you know, like, what, what brings you joy? And they look at me like I'm crazy. And it's because, yeah, of course, you can have dance bring you joy, you can have things outside of dance bring you joy, but it's not what we prioritize at all. And I'd be interested to hear what your trajectory was, but for me, like I enjoyed dance, it was who I was love, love all through high school and I completely lost the joy in college. And it took so long, basically until I did Fiddler again.
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
to realize that it could be so joyful. And actually, now that we're talking about auditions and getting in the room and having fun in auditions, Fiddler was the first audition that I walked in and I was like, this is fun. I love this show, I love this music. This, the environment is so great. We were standing on the side while other people were doing the choreography and I was jumping up and down and
Austin
Aww.
Jessica
I was just having fun and it just felt right. And so I think that is such a valuable thing to recognize that it makes sense that you lose the joy because it is a job or in college it is a grade and it's really hard to fight for the joy. And sometimes it takes something like what you've experienced to find it again.
Austin
Yeah, I love that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's also like, you know, now that I'm, I've been back for six months, I think, since like back in the audition room, it's still fairly recent, but I can already feel like, you know, I'll be in auditions, and I'll feel like my nerves taking over or feel like the stress of it. I'll be like, Oh, I don't want to do this, whatever. And I'll be like, Austin, don't forget, like you have the capacity to choose to find the joy in this and you can choose to you know, you can get out of it what you want. And I think I just falling back into old patterns, I'm like, no, okay, no, we're not doing that anymore. We're different now, remember that because, and it's just so much more fun and it's really empowering to know that you are able to kind of choose for yourself, like what you wanna get out of things and how you wanna show up and what you wanna bring to the room for yourself and for other people. And...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
Yeah, I think that's just a really powerful thing that people, myself, needs a reminder of sometimes.
Jessica
Yeah, and to be perfectly clear, it's not saying that you should just be so grateful you get to dance, no matter what, no matter how you're treated, no matter if you're given crumbs and that's all you're gonna get and you're not treated well or paid well, whatever it is. It's not saying that at all. It's about finding the right opportunities where you are safe and supported and then saying.
Austin
Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica
then calling out your bullshit. Like if you're so nervous to go to an audition, but it's actually something where, oh, I feel like I might actually be paid well and treated well and I like the team and I like the show, but I'm just so nervous and it's so stressful because I want it so badly. That's how you can talk yourself back into the heart of it and the joy of it and talk yourself out of the stress of it a little more. Yeah, to be very clear, because I talk about that with friends
Austin
Yes. Those are two very different things. Yeah. Yes.
Jessica
all the time who are auditioning constantly and like, this is so miserable. I'm like, yeah, a lot of your auditions probably are miserable with a lot of icky people. Yeah, that's probably true. But there are good ones. And we just need to fight to find the good auditions and the good people to work with. And we have to make opportunities too. We have to set the example.
Austin
Yeah, and I think that, yeah, and I find that with classes too. I've found the teachers who inspire me and who I think create a really warm environment in the room. And I think early on I had taken a theater class in a room that was very kind of felt cold and a little cutthroat and not fun. And I was like, oh, I hate theater classes. I'm not going to any. And recently I've discovered, oh, wait…
Jessica
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Austin
there's different environments with different people, huh? Imagine that. And so I've rediscovered my love for taking classes from different people and being inspired by different teachers and choreographers. And that's been a new discovery for me that I'm grateful for. But yeah, it's amazing what a difference the team leading the room can make. And it's disappointing when those people are creating a room that's not fun to be in, but then when it is, you know, it just is so lovely when it's a nice room to be in and you can tell everyone feels supported and we need more of those.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Yeah, that's why I enjoy being on the creative team a lot because I know being on the other side how
Austin
Hahaha.
Jessica
vital it is to treat people well and with kindness and respect and positivity and support and honesty. And I like being in that position because even if I've only been an assistant or an associate and not leading, but I'm leading in some capacity, I do feel like the energy I bring and the support I bring can make a bit of a difference.
Austin
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica
But also I just want to touch upon the classes thing because there are a lot of, again, like icky environments out there in classes. And there are some really beautiful, beautiful environments and teachers and peers to be dancing with and taking other classes with. And I've been petrified to get myself back into classes for many reasons, that being the intimidating or stressful environment is one factor. And so when I went back to take class again, I think like two summers ago, maybe last summer, I can't remember, I went to steps and I took a beginner, like absolute beginner ballet class to reintroduce myself to the class space. And I let it be all about enjoying ballet and doing it because I loved it.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
And then I did that once and I thought I was going to do it for months and then I moved to an intermediate class because I was like, okay, I can, it's back in my body now, I can move on. But I gave myself the space and the kindness to say, let's just ease into this. And also, one more thing about that I feel very strongly about is just because it's like you said, oh, I thought I hated taking a theater class.
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
And for so long, I thought I hated dance in general because of what my experience had been. And it's taken me and it's still taking me forever to unravel that and be like, oh wait, I never hated dance. I hated the environment I was in. I hated this teacher's class. I hated how I was treated. And so I really try to stress that a ton to my friends and my students. Like if you catch yourself in any kind of thought pattern like that, really question it.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Is it really that you don't like this thing or is it that there's something off about the environment?
Austin
Yeah, yeah, there's just so many factors that go into your experience of something. And I, I feel like for myself, I often will like paint with a wide brush and be like, oh, well, I just didn't like that. I don't like this anymore. Um, and it could just be one person. It could just be like a comment. It could be just like a small thing that has like snowballed and it's just important. Like you said, to be asking those questions because you don't want.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
to accidentally let someone else take that joy from you without you realizing it. When there are so many rooms that, you know, will let you up and inspire you and make you feel like yourself and empower you. So I think I just always wanna be kind of finding those rooms and finding those people. And it's sometimes hard and that's okay.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
This is why you will be the absolute perfect associate. Everyone hire Austin Sora. She is the dream to work with. So, such an incredible performer, such a kind human being, and so incredibly professional and smart, so smart. So we need Austin in more rooms, okay? Everyone listen.
Austin
Thanks, Jess. Yes. You're so sweet. Thanks Jess. No, there's going to be more people than two, at least, at least three, just kidding. There's going to be more.
Jessica
All two of you listening, hire Austin.
Jessica
Yeah, as long as one person listens to this and gains something from one episode, it is 100% worth it to me. That's it.
Austin
It's going to be great. Now, I think I'm excited to listen to these, so you have at least one. I'm listening to all of them. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
Okay, good. So Austin, hire Austin. Yeah.
Austin
Yeah, but no, I think I'm excited. I think that's one of the reasons I am interested in being an associate and being on a creative team is for the same reason as you is that I've been in rooms that feel icky and I've been in rooms that light me up and I want to be part of creating that space for other people and it's something that I'm really excited about. And watching you do it has been inspiring to me and I wanna follow in your footsteps and do that. So yeah, I'm excited.
Jessica
Oh my gosh. Also just, it's so wild for you to say that to me because, so when I met Austin, we were in school together and she was two years older, two years. And we did the movement invention project together, a summer intensive. And it was after my freshman year. So after your junior year, I think. And I was obsessed with Austin.
Austin
Yes. Yeah. Hahaha.
Jessica
And I was like, she's just so nice and such a beautiful mover. And I was like, oh, I just wanna know her. And she was the older kid and she was so cool and amazing. And my sister, Andie did the intensive with us as well. And so like, we're both just like, oh, we love Austin, we love Austin. And so over the years, as I would get to know Austin, I would say, Andie, guess what? I'm getting coffee with Austin or guess what? I'm having a phone call with Austin. I'd be like, oh my gosh, she's so cool. Anyway, so it's a- I it's it seems silly, but honestly, it's such a good reminder to look back at your younger self and say, Hey, you're actually peers with and friends with this person who inspired you so much and who you looked up to so much and still do. I don't know. It's just a nice sometimes you just got to celebrate those little wins.
Austin
Yeah. That's so sweet. I remember in the bathroom at that intensive, you were like, hi, I don't know if you know who I am, but I go to Marymount and I was like, yeah, Jess.
Jessica
That probably made my life.
Austin
It was so cute and sweet and like, but also like that. I've also done that to people too. So I like totally have been in that person as well. And it was, it's funny. Yeah. But I am also glad to be your friend. Yeah.
Jessica
Hahaha
Jessica
It's good, it's nice, yeah. It's really good. Yeah, highly recommend, 10 out of 10. Yeah, it's amazing too that you can have, I mean, school can be very overwhelming, certain jobs can be very overwhelming. You just never know how the people who are there are going to impact you in some way long-term. So I'm friends with you now. Some of my teachers from...
Austin
It's pretty good, yeah, I recommend it.
Jessica
Marymount, I still talk to you on the phone and get coffee with and they're not just mentors anymore but friends and something you would never think is possible. So that's something I also always, yeah, I think it's incredible to see the people around you as people that you want to connect with. And whenever anyone's talking to me about having a hard time with the term networking.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Like, oh, it feels so icky, it feels so fake. I'm like, networking is just connecting. I mean, sure, you can do it in an icky and a fake way, 100%, but I stay in touch with people because I love people and I love the people I stay in touch with. And I'm like, oh, I wanna know what's up with them. I wanna be able to support them. I believe in them. I wanna tell them I believe in them. I wanna have a coffee with them, whatever it is. That's networking.
Austin
Yeah, exactly. It's just building relationships and you can do it in a genuine way and enjoy it. And that's, I mean, you're in my network. So, yeah.
Jessica
Yeah, same, same. It's like you can go and catch up with a friend and also you can recommend them for something.
Austin
Yeah. It is neat to be, you know, so many years out of school and to be able to recommend people for things and to be in that position. And it, it feels really good when I'm able to like give people a job or like help people, you know, connect. It, it feels really good. And it's neat that we're kind of, you know, in that position now.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, my favorite, one of my favorite things that happened this year was I got to sit on the audition panel for Cinderella at Geva Theater. I was the associate director. And so we had auditions in New York at Ripley. And it was the first time I was sitting behind the table at Ripley where I had done countless auditions. And I wrote five pages of notes.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
about what I wanted to share with my friends that I thought was going to be insightful for them as actors and as dancers and how to show up in a room, how to not show up in a room, what to say, what not to say, what to do, what not to do. And I was like, I felt like a detective almost, like a, what's it called when you're on the inside, you're a secret agent or something. I felt like that and not in a, not in a.
Austin
Yeah. Like a spy.
Jessica
Yeah, like a spy. Yeah. I was like, Oh, this is good. They shouldn't be spending two hours getting ready in the morning because you walk in for 10 seconds and then you walk out. Like, don't worry about your hair, girl. You know, these things that came up and I'm like, Oh, I hit the jackpot and I can then distribute this like we're all in one.
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
community and it's been so I hated the feelings of walking into auditions where you're Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so grateful just to be in your presence. Thank you so much And it's like um on this side of the panel. We can't do our job if you don't show up So thank you. I'm grateful that you just showed up for us and that's Oh my gosh, I had so many my biggest takeaway is that it is so fucking random
Austin
Yeah.
Austin
Yeah. Oh, what was your biggest takeaway?
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
It is so random. Being good, being a good actor, singer, dancer is the baseline. Like it is, everyone's good. And some people are better than others, of course, but like there's gonna be a baseline of who is gonna be considered. And then it is incredibly random. It is in a dance call, it's like, oh, were you...
Austin
Yeah, like everyone's good.
Jessica
stuck in the back corner for this run and this person in the front right just captivated my eyes so I didn't even really watch you. And so you didn't get a call back. It can be that simple. And I remember, I learned that young. I learned that while I was auditioning because we would go to so many auditions and you were with your friends and you'd be watching your friends. And I would be like, that's bullshit. I saw the panel not even look at her and she killed it. And she would have probably
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
booked it had they even looked at her, but they knew this person and she was standing in the front and so she was the one being watched and she's the only one in that group that I saw. I saw one resume put to the yes pile and I know it was hers because she's right there, whatever it is. So yeah, I learned that young, but it's so random. If you sing a song that meant something to me
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
maybe I'm a little more engaged. If you come in and...I don't know, I mean, let me say something a little bit clearer. It's not totally random. It's not like, oh, you walk in, I like that person, I don't like that person, done. I just mean that they're not random. I should say there are so many factors involved.
Austin
Hahaha. Yeah, and different things will resonate with different people. Yeah.
Jessica
Yes, and it can be super technical or logistic. Like we needed really strong singers because it was a small ensemble. But other times, like with Fiddler, you didn't really need to be a good singer to be one of the dancers. So, so much of it is just the luck of the draw or the size or, oh, I am doing this replacement and I already have this costume.
Austin
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica
And so it'll be easier if I just throw someone in because they have to start tomorrow and we don't have time to make them a whole new costume, whatever it is. So my biggest takeaway, all that said, is you come in, do the work, have your lessons, take your classes, be as ready as you can, learn the sides, prepare the songs, whatever it is, and then just know that
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
All you can do is your best. All you can show is yourself. And also people wanna work with you as a human. So show who you actually are as a human. Don't feel like you need to put on an act. And again, this is me. This is me sitting behind the table. I'm sure other people disagree with this.
Austin
Yeah, well, no, I think what you're saying is pretty universal. I don't think anyone is like put on an act. Maybe, maybe I could be wrong. Yeah, that's honestly very true. Um, I don't want to be in that room, but.
Jessica
I don't know. I don't know. Some people like to have their ass kissed, I think. It's just being real here. Exactly. I'll run head out, run head first. I'll run out of that room so fast. Yeah.
Austin
Yeah.
Austin
Yeah, yeah, well, that's great. So if you want to work with Jess, be yourself.
Jessica
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it was it was I had so many fun takeaways like where something you're super comfortable with. Put fun things on your resume that you might like that just might intrigue somebody.
Austin
Mhm.
Jessica
So I just wanna quickly circle back to the injury because whether you have a serious injury like that or you have like a chronic illness or you're depressed or you're anxious or you just like actually can't get into dance class because you don't have the money or whatever it is, when you're taken, when you have some reason where you can't do the thing you love.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
or you have a complicated relationship with it, it can be really heartbreaking and confusing. And I wonder what your journey was with actually being forced away from it. How did that impact you emotionally? And like, did it change your relationship at all with your body?
Austin
Yes, definitely. I think, well, what was interesting was when the pandemic started, I had just gotten off tour. I was doing eight shows a week and had this like very set routine. And the pandemic happened and, you know, we didn't return to dancing until it had been a year. It had been a year plus. And I think my body had changed a lot in that time and my routine had changed a lot. And I did not think about taking care of my body. I didn't think about having to, you know, the maintenance of it. And I think that's why I got injured because I was just being pretty haphazard and just being like, oh, I'll go do this audition and then not dance for two weeks and then go do another one, like that's fine. And what I have learned is that my body as it gets older needs different things. And the maintenance and the, you know, I'm doing my daily PT exercises. I'm making sure that I'm fueling it properly. I'm trying to drink water. And all of these things, you know, I'm trying to do this. It's not perfect, but I'm prioritizing them. And I am noticing a difference. I'm, I have more energy. I'm, I feel stronger. I feel like I can do different genres. I can hop back and forth a lot easier. And, um, I think that's something that's so important moving forward. And that's going to serve me in the long run. And I'm going to have a lot more longevity with my career. I'm going to be able to, you know, my body will hurt last hopefully as I get older, um, and it will prevent more injuries from happening.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
um, in the future. So I think that it's, you know, and, and also, I also am better about checking in with myself and honoring like what my body needs day to day. And if I have signed up for this class or is planning on going to class and I'm just really like not feeling it. If I've pushed myself to go take class, it's not going to be a good experience. Um, and so I like know that now and I know that like I can not go one day and not judge myself and know that that'll make me feel a thousand times better the next day and I can get so much more out of class the next time I go. Or like if I need to sleep in or if I need to like take a nap or if I need to stretch a little bit like just listening to what my body needs and honoring that and not judging that has been a big game changer as well.
Jessica
Mmm. That's huge.
Austin
Yeah, it's hard. It's like a big lesson to learn. And I still struggle every so often with feeling lazy and being like, no, you promised yourself this. You need to go. But yeah, and if my Achilles is hurting one day, I'll be like, oh, I need to strengthen my glutes. And I didn't know that before. And so just a lot of like educating myself about what my body is trying to tell me and listening to that, it just keeps me more.
Jessica
Hmm.
Austin
in touch with what I need. And my goal is just to make myself feel good. Just emotionally, physically, yeah.
Jessica
Yes, that's so important. Yeah, it makes me think about how for so long after college, I couldn't get myself to move or take care of myself at all. Like I was so overworking my body and pushing it way too hard in the wrong ways all throughout school. So when I graduated, I was like, I'm never gonna think about my body again. And I didn't move my body at all. I didn't care how I fueled it.
Austin
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jessica
I went the complete opposite way. And then I found yoga and I figured out how to find more of a balance. But I think what can be really tricky, especially if you are navigating a complicated relationship with dance, maybe you don't dance at all anymore, or maybe it is a complicated one like with me. And so I find that I still struggle getting myself to actually properly care for myself because for so long, eating a certain way and moving a certain way was completely correlated with how well I would dance or not. So it was like move your body because you want to be a good dancer. Eat this way because you want to be a good dancer versus how about I fuel and nourish myself and move my body in a way that will actually make me feel good.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
and properly care for myself. And then if I happen to be able to dance, that's great and it's a bonus, but I'm not only paying attention to that because there's some kind of outcome I want as a dancer.
Austin
Right. Yeah. I think feeling yourself and taking care of yourself as a person will make you be someone who enjoys dancing, as opposed to eating a certain way and, you know, having a certain lifestyle. So you can be a good dancer is, yeah, it's very restrictive and it's very, it's just not sustainable. And I think that it's, um...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
especially as you get older, I think I know that like in college and programs that are very rigorous and scheduled, there's less flexibility or there's more consequence, I guess it's a little bit more complicated. But, but yeah, I think there's still a way to, to figure out and listen to your body and, and communicate that with people if there's pushback or whatnot. So
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Austin
Yeah, it's very complicated, but I think that's just something that is so important in terms of like, if I don't know, and I feel like even in like a college program or like in a company or you know a place that there's like pushback for taking time off or like for listening to your body, that's all just temporary as well, which and I think that I just remember when I was at Busch Gardens, we were in an outdoor theater and it was like, it was really cold. And someone in the cast was like, I'm gonna take it easy because my career is not ending at this job. And I was like, oh, wow. And at the time I was like, that's lazy. And now I'm like, wow, that was very wise. Like there's life after this current chapter. So you gotta play the long game.
Jessica
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica
Yes. I, at the third to last day of the Cinderella contract, I got a concussion and someone dropped a battery from the balcony and it hit my head. A small battery, but enough to give you a concussion. And I, it was like right at go time. It was
Austin
Oh no, Jess!
Jessica
start of previews. It was like we're about to do our first run. And that's when as an associate director, I was like, I mean, the whole time I was working a lot, but this was a new level of that. And I remember just talking to the general manager and she's like, what do you want to do? You want to go to the doctor? And I was like, yeah.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
this job is not worth me having brain damage potentially. Like I'm gonna rest. I will rest for the 48 hours that my doctor tells me to rest. And I am not gonna sit in a theater with all the lights and the sounds and the fog and the this on my computer with the lights and the clicking and the brain focus and everything when I'm supposed to be laying in the dark with nothing.
Austin
Mm-hmm. Hehehe. Yeah.
Jessica
I will not break my brain for this job. I wanted to be there so badly. I had put in so much work. I loved this company so much. I was so proud of them. I wanted to see it through. And so it was not an easy decision, but it was an obvious decision to me. It was like, yeah, this freaking sucks, but it's an, it's the only option I won't even consider pushing through this.
Austin
Yeah. And if you did push through it, it also would have been a disservice to everyone in the long run. If, you know, that meant taking off more time or if it meant you not being able to show up fully for everyone. Like, I think you're also doing everyone a service by taking time off.
Jessica
Yeah, I agree. And so as we're gonna wrap up, I wanna ask you one fun question. Do you have any funny or embarrassing or whatever, like audition stories or show stories or things that went wrong? I love when things go wrong. It's the swing in me.
Austin
Yes, I do. I think so. My very, very first musical theater audition was for Marie, Dancing Still, which is formerly Little Dancer that Tyler Peck was in. And I had a teacher who was like, Oh, they're looking for like short ballet dancers and you fit the bill, so you should go. And I was like, I don't really sing, I don't really do musical theater, I had just graduated. And she was like, just come, it's fine, just come. And so I went and I did the dancing and it was fun. And then I got asked to stay to sing. And I, the night before had known that it was possible that I was gonna have to sing. And I went to my musical, oh no, so I went to, a gift store in Times Square and I got, I didn't know where to get music. And so I went and bought like a score, like a souvenir score from Annie. And it was Maybe, and it was one of those big cardboard like learn how to play piano for kids scores. And I was gonna take it into the audition and at the last minute I talked to one of my friends who was like my musical theater friend. And I was like I have this thing that I bought in Times Square from Annie. Like, do you think this is good? And she was like, absolutely not. Let me give you a song. And so she gave me a song. Yes, she saved me. I am glad that I asked her. And so she gave me a single sheet, like a little tiny cut. And so I ended up having to sing. And so I walked in with the little paper and I gave it to the accompanist. And that much, it was a success so far.
Jessica
Oh, I love those people.
Austin
And I went to the middle of the room and they were like, okay, like start your song, go ahead sing. And I started singing and I looked the people behind the table dead in the eyes. And as I was singing just like stared them down. And within the first like three seconds of the song, I was like, shoot, this feels really awkward. I don't think you're supposed to look at the people who are looking at you, but I've already committed to this. So like, I can't.
Jessica
Hehehehe
Austin
I can't change my decision now. I would look, I don't know, for some reason in my head I thought that would look like I was a flaky person that I didn't commit. And so I was like, I'm committing to this, even though it's really uncomfortable. And so once it was completely unbearable looking at the first person, I went down the line and looked at the second person until it was unbearable and then I would go back and forth. And the song ended and I was like, thank goodness that is done. I never have to do this again. And they were like, wow, that was so great. Thank you so much. They were so kind and like so gracious. And they were like, we're gonna have you do it one more time. And in my head, I was like, damn it, I cannot do this again. And they were like, this time, just look up above us. You don't have to look at us. Ha ha ha. I was like, yeah, I kind of gathered that, but it was mortifying. And, um, but here we are. We, we survived.
Austin
Yeah, and I got a call back, which is very funny.
Jessica
That is a great story. Yeah. Yeah! That's amazing. I think that that's one thing to remind dancers of who are going into the musical theater space and who are a little bit overwhelmed. Like there aren't really that many things that you have to figure out, that you have to learn. There's really not, but you just have to learn them. And that, yeah.
Austin
Yeah. No, you'll learn it your first time. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica
And so if you have someone or if you could take a class or ask anybody who's done it before, what are the basics I need to know? Like if I just had asked, I think I would have been in a much better position. Get a couple of songs you're super comfortable with, take a bunch of voice lessons. It's expensive, but it's an investment. Most teachers will let you, or a lot of teachers that I've had at least will have you record the lesson.
Austin
Yeah.
Jessica
And so you can go and play it back on your own. It's not like every time you want to say, you need to pay that money. Get a couple lessons, understand your voice a little bit better. Get a couple songs that are good for you for the different kinds of things you'll audition for. And then talk to somebody about what happens when you step into the room. Where to look, how to talk to the pianist, where to stand. And that's like, and like what it mean, oh, I'm gonna start right on this note or give me this note.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Can I hear my first note? These little things, it's not that many things, and then you're gonna feel so much better and you're gonna feel so much more confident. So invest the time and the money early in your career to just learn it and figure it out. And then you're gonna be fine. Because I had so many unnecessarily awkward singing calls. And I think that there were so many calls too I went to where
Austin
Yes.
Jessica
I was so desperate not to sing that I look back and I think, could I possibly have been dancing to my fullest extent? Cause I desperately did not want to call back because that meant I'd have to sing.
Austin
Yeah.
Austin
Oh, me too. Yeah. I used to like sabotage my dance auditions and be like, please, please don't get a call but I don't want to sing. And now in hindsight, I'm like, what was I doing?
Jessica
Yeah, yeah, you can do it. And also, the other thing is that you do not have to be the best singer in the world. Like you do not have to be the best singer in the world to be dancing in musical theater. You have to know what's up. And you have to be able to keep your melody or keep your harmony and harmony, your harmony, your harmony and figure that out. But you don't need to be able to cover
Austin
Mm-hmm. Your harmony.
Jessica
You don't need to blow anybody. You just kind of have to sometimes be good enough to not stand out in a bad way. There are shows like that and that's totally fine. So don't feel like you have to, don't let the fear of singing hold you back in that regard. Just get as confident as you can get with what you have and you will have, you will find the right jobs for your ability in singing.
Austin
Yes, yes, because there's always like, I feel like there's like the different skill sets and they're all like on a dial. And, you know, certain, certain ones, you need to be like a 10 for dancing, but like a two for singing or like, you know, the dials change for different jobs and you'll find one that matches your skill set.
Jessica
Yeah, yeah. My Fiddler singing audition was horrific and mortifying and I still ended up covering some of the sisters and having to have that. So it was fine. I just wish I knew. And, like you're saying that person who helped you, I had someone in my Fiddler callback help me, who was a singer, who was our Chava, Noa. She was so, I remember it so clearly. I was like
Austin
Yeah. Aw.
Jessica
Okay, I'll just say it quickly. I was singing my friend's song. It's just such a, oh my gosh. I was singing my friend Thomas Hodges, he's a composer, a brilliant composer, and I was singing one of his songs that he wrote in a musical. And it was because our casting director, Jason Styres, came in to the room and said, "Listen, I know a lot of you are dancers "and you're probably nervous about singing. Sing...
Austin
want to hear it.
Jessica
anything you feel comfortable with, anything at all.” And I was like, that's so amazing. Okay, great. I was going to sing 16 going on 17, but I was so much more comfortable with my friend Thomas's song because I had sung it a bunch of times before with him. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. So like 10 seconds before I go in, I like get to that sheet music and I go and I bring it in and it's Jason and it's our associate choreographer and our associate director. And
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
They're so lovely and they had been holding the kindest, most supportive environment for the auditions up to that point. And so I started and the ending note I just completely, I was like just completely wrong. And it was this huge note and I was like, wrong. It's just wrong. It feels wrong. It sounds horrible. I don't know what happened. Jason's like, okay, why don't you try it again? And this is like our third callback or something. I can't remember. And so I try it again, can't figure it out. The pianist is like showing me the note. This is the final note, do it. Can't figure it out. So what I learned is that Thomas had updated the song in the sheet music, but I didn't know the new version and I wasn't aware enough to be able to figure it out in the moment, because it was so ingrained in my body and I wasn't comfortable, I was already panicking. And Jason goes, okay, so.
Austin
Aww.
Jessica
Why don't you try singing Happy Birthday for us?
Austin
Oh no.
Jessica
I was like, and he's so nice and they're all so nice. They could not be more supportive. And I was like, okay, I'll sing Happy Birthday. So mortifying. And then I get a final callback, miraculously, and we do all of the dancing and it's everybody. It's like Bartlett Sher is there and the entire team. And we do all the dancing. We go into this other room and we're getting ready to sing. And I was trying to figure out, I was going out to people and I was like, I don't know what to do. Jason told me I should just sing Happy Birthday again, but I think that I can't sing Happy Birthday in front of Bartlett Sher. Like I think I have to sing a real song. And so I went out to Noa who ended up being our Chava and she could not have been lovelier. And I was like, what do you think I should do? She goes, definitely sing 16 going on 17.
Austin
She's like, there's no question here.
Jessica
Yeah, she's like, do not sing Happy Birthday. And I was like, I know, I think he was just trying to be nice and didn't want me to make a fool of myself. So that's why he said to sing it. Anyway, so I went in and I sang 16 going on 17 and it went well. And I got the job and I got to cover the sisters and Chava and all of that. So it ended up being fine. But man, just practice before you go in.
Austin
That was nice of her to help you. Yeah.
Jessica
It was so nice. I will never forget that kindness. You never forget the kindness that happens in audition rooms when you're trying to help people or have people help you figure things out. It can be so stressful and to have that little bit of humanity and yeah, yeah. Whew, man, that was a time.
Austin
connection and yeah. Aw. I know it's scary to ask for help, but people are always willing.
Jessica
Yeah, and I think also that was the only time in my entire two and a half or three years of auditioning after school that I ever got a callback, ever, was with anything related to Fiddler. And so at that point I think I was also just like
Austin
Mhm. Wow. Yeah.
Jessica
I need this, I want this, I'm right for this.
Austin
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
And so I'm going to do what I can to just put my best foot forward no matter what. Whereas.
Austin
Yeah. And you were willing to go through the uncomfy bits where instead of sabotaging.
Jessica
Yes. I was so desperate to do that show that I had auditioned in April 2018. And there was a callback that same day. Then there was another audition August 2018. There was another callback. And then I didn't book the tour. And I was like, Okay, well, I'm not doing musical theater, because this is the only show that's ever felt right to me. So I guess I'm not meant to do it. And then I like
Austin
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessica
went away I was like I'm moving to California and all this stuff and I went out there and I came back and then the following May or something there was a post about a singing call for Fiddler and I was like okay well I'm gonna go show up again because I'm gonna do this show. Yeah and by that point I went to Jason and he was like oh it’s nice to see you again.
Austin
You're like, I'm going to do the show. Yeah.
Jessica
whatever, and I was like, listen, I'm gonna be here for a long time. I don't remember what I said, but I was like, this is my show.
Austin
Yeah. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah.
Jessica
This is my show. So anyway, yeah, good times. Sometimes you gotta fight a little harder. It did work out, yeah. Well, Austin, I love you so much.
Austin
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Well, it all worked out. Yeah. I love you so much. Thank you so much for having me on here. This was fun. I'd love just like chatting with you.
Jessica
Good thing. Yeah, I just love chatting with these brilliant, beautiful artists. And I'm like, let's just let other people hear what they have to say. It's that simple. Hello. Let's just get this mic going. That's the point. That was my hope. I know sometimes I say things that I'm like, do I want that to be public information? Sure. Why not? What are we holding back at this point? Come on. Yeah.
Austin
Yeah. I know I forgot we were recording. I was like, oh shoot, wait, your plan worked.
Jessica
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, I love you. Thank you so much. And I can't wait to see you soon.
Austin
Thank you. I love you too. Yes, definitely. Oh, thanks Jess. I can't wait to listen to all of the other podcasts as well.
Jessica
Yes. Thank you.
Same. I haven't listened back yet. Okay talk to you soon. Bye.
Austin
Bye!
Transcript
Jessica — Intro
Jessica
Okay, hi, Gabby.
Gabrielle
Hello!
Jessica
So we are here with Gabby Sprauve, who is an absolutely beautiful, incredible human and performer. And before we get into what she does on her resume and in her bio, my first thing I wanna ask you is, what would you consider to be your human bio? So how would you describe your bio off of your resume?
Gabrielle
Ooh, my human bio off of my resume. I would say if I'm just talking about myself and I'm not being super technical on paper, I am an artist and an advocate. And in my past couple of years of being part of a dance company, I've definitely become a leader, which is something that I fell into. I didn't, I didn't try to be a leader, but it just kind of naturally fell on my lap and I love it. I am someone who likes to hold great responsibility and availability and power like that, but have it and know about it in the right way, in a positive way and in a nurturing way because I have experienced power being abused. So I would say that's my human bio off of my resume. And then there's the technical stuff. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is incredible and perfectly describes you. So beautiful. So before we hit record, we were immediately diving into where you are now. And instead of starting at the very beginning, why don't we start with what's happening for you right now in this moment, where you are, and then we can go backwards.
Gabrielle
Yeah, for sure. So right now I am in my last month with my dance company, Ballet Hispanico. I've been with the company for six years and I just have a little like less than a month actually. I have like 28 days left with the company and I am definitely in a time of transition. I'm excited. I'm all of the emotions. I'm, you know, a little bit sad to leave in a way because of the bond that you create with the dancers there and how used to traveling you get and being able to kind of share your gift around the world. But I know I'm still going to be able to do it just in a different way, maybe less frequent, but I'm okay with it and I'm very content. And I'm just moving into many different things. I'm going to freelance for a while. I'm going to teach. I am also modeling. I have a modeling agency so I'm gonna start doing that more. I also started a course with the New York Institute of Art and Design to get my certification in interior design. Yeah, so I'm gonna be doing that. My friend Lawson is actually an interior designer which you know and he we've been amazing friends you know for years, and he's gonna help me out and wants to kind of bring me under his wing. So I'm gonna be dipping my toes in many different things. And yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm in a time of transition, a little bit of a question mark for some of the future, but in a good way. It keeps me keeps me on my toes.
Jessica
Yeah. And being in that kind of full-time intensive company with rehearsals and performances and travels and everything that you've done for six years, right? That's what you said? That's wild. And you did it right out of school.
Gabrielle
Yeah. I sure did. I got my contract like three months before we graduated and then I started not too long after we graduated. So it's just been all I know.
Jessica
Wow. So Gabby went to Marymount with me. That's how we know each other. And we didn't have too much overlap. A couple classes.
Gabrielle
Just a couple classes, our main one, I think was my first year and it was ballet. And we were going to the Graham studios for like a walk away from the main building. And Nick was in that class, I remember that.
Jessica
Mm hmm. Nick has gotten a couple of shout outs on this podcast already. He's a he's a main character in many of our lives.
Gabrielle
Yes. Oh, I'm sure. I'll never forget. Never forget. Ha ha ha.
Jessica
So let's rewind now a little bit. Can you tell us about how you were trained growing up, how you came about dancing and being an artist and everything kind of leading up to your time at Marymount?
Gabrielle
Yeah, so I started dancing when I was three. I was really little. And my mom always says that like, it was just a natural thing. And she knew I needed to go into classes. They would put music on and I would be choreographing and making everyone watch me dance and put on shows. So I started when I was really little. And I mean, from three years old, like I was going to classes two times a week very consistently. And by the time I was a little more, like a little older, I just stuck with it. I trained in ballet pretty heavily, classical ballet. For most of my childhood, I wasn't introduced to other styles. So I would say I was like 10 or 11, but ballet was a big focus for me at that time. I didn't know, you know, all the things that were out in the world dance wise. So I trained in Savannah, Georgia for the most part. I was born in Queens, New York. So the first couple of years of my childhood, I trained at a school in Queens, a really small school in Jamaica, Queens. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was about seven and I started training at a school there where the name has changed many different times. But I had couple of main teachers there growing up that I just kind of stuck with whenever they would move to a new studio I would just kind of hop to that studio with them and I would say my most inspiring training was when I had like my first black teacher her name was Sylvia Waters I had her for a few years she's the one that put me on pointe shoes. And then after that, James Atkinson, another black teacher that I had who made me the first African American Clara in Georgia, which was a pretty, yeah, pretty awesome thing. And then after that, doing a summer program with Dawn Axam, another person who pushed me in my training. And then I went to Savannah Arts Academy for high school. And eventually I was...
Jessica
Wow.
Gabrielle
doing that and still training at my studio after school. And I did that up until I would say my junior year. And then I mainly danced at my high school, got into Marymount, got my BFA at Marymount, and then started with BH. And it's been a whirlwind. I grew up doing a lot of summer programs at Graham and Alvin Ailey, and just trying to be a little bit of everywhere, but also, trying to spend my summers mostly in New York because I was definitely a New Yorker at heart, even though I moved when I was very little. So yeah, that was my training. I'd say I give responsibility to my training to many different teachers and many different areas of my life that they came at the right time. Definitely there for a reason and for a season because it's just how life works. But yeah.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
That's been my training.
Jessica
It's so beautiful how any random person can make a lifelong impact on you, even if you take one class with them. It's incredible.
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm, absolutely. I actually, I recently, I had um, when I was really little, I think I was maybe 10 or 11, my teacher at the time brought in Ted Pola and he used to dance for Alvin Ailey for years and he was another like, I think he was the first black male teacher that I had when I was really young. And I'll just never forget, like, he walked in, and I was just, my eyes were so wide, and I was so excited, and he really gravitated towards me, and he choreographed on us, he taught us alvin Ailey rep, like, he taught us Wade in the Water, and it was such an amazing experience. And I was so little, and then years went by, and we lost touch, I never saw him again. But we have this picture of when I was that age that he has that I have. And fast forward to being in the company. One of my best friends, Antonio Cangiano, he's Italian. When he came to the States, you need a sponsor if you're coming to the States to do any sort of work in terms of your visa. Ted Poland, that teacher, was his sponsor when he first came to the States.
Jessica
Wow.
Gabrielle
And recently he was going to meet up with him and Ted had sent him like a picture of when, you know, a time when he was teaching little kids and how much he loved it. And I was in the picture and Antonio sent me the picture and he was like, is this you? And I said, oh my God, that's Ted. So just a couple of weeks ago, I mean, and like, it's like 16, 17, like years later. We met up and I had dinner at his house and I was able to talk to him and thank him for being one of those people in my life and my training at such a young age and just tell him how important that was and that he did more than his due diligence and his job. He cared and he did it well and that was something that stuck with me. I was like, here I am at your house having a cocktail now, years later.
Jessica
That's incredible.
Gabrielle
So yeah, that was pretty cool. Full circle moment I had recently. I think I came at a really beautiful time too since I'm leaving the company and I was able to talk to him and confide in him and get advice about moving on and stuff like that. So it's pretty amazing.
Jessica
It shows that whether you are someone's colleague or their mentor or their teacher, director, choreographer, that you have immense power to change someone's life in one sentence, in one piece of encouragement. And I think we can all look back and think about those people in our lives who have encouraged and then people who have done the opposite.
Gabrielle
Absolutely. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Jessica
And it's really, really significant. You have so much power to impact someone around you.
Gabrielle
Absolutely, that's something I really, you know, now that I'm older in my career, I teach a lot. And my favorite age to teach is like pre-professional students, college age, or just like young adults who are trying to figure out this world. And I think that's my favorite age to teach because I now have the ability to be honest with them about what they're walking into, be honest with them about my experience and the things I had to learn. And my biggest thing is that I have power when you're at the front of the room. You know, like they're all there to be inspired and they're looking at you. So when you know you have that responsibility and that power, what do you do with it? And how do you not take advantage of the fact that you hold the microphone like that?
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
And something that I made a vow to myself is to never treat them the way that I had been treated sometimes in certain areas of my life, training and not manipulate them, you know, and play head games and be rude and threaten them. Like, you know, I don't, it's not something that one comes naturally to me, which thank God, it just doesn't come naturally to me. But also, that was so discouraging for me.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
I have to do so much work to dismantle that crap in my brain so that I could dance my fullest and be my fullest self. And honestly, it took me like a while to get that out of my body and out of my mind. And sometimes I think back and I'm like, oh man, you know, I feel like what's, what kind of dancer could I have been earlier on if I wasn't spending so much time getting out the manipulative head game stuff that was put on me. You know, so it's definitely it's something that I feel like people have to make sure they understand when you hold that power what you're doing with it and how you are managing it because you can't just say anything and do anything. It's just not okay. And I'm always an advocate. I always tell them self-worth is imperative. Like when I'm teaching, actually this past week, I was teaching them something so hard. One of our reps in the company is not easy to get and they didn't have a lot of time to get it. And they would be doing the choreography and trying to get this step. And they're like staring at me to see if I'm, you know, like upset or like is She looking at me and I stopped the music and I said, guys, don't ever let someone at the front of the room hold that much power over you and your dancing and what you're here for. I was like, I'm not here, you know, with a contract in my hand doing eenie meenie miney mo who could potentially get it. I was like, that's not my role here. And even if I was, that's not how I would go about it at all. I was like, you guys each have a place here. You have a purpose.
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
You're here for a reason, it's to learn, it's to grow. Don't ever let someone at the front of the room get in the way of that. I was like, don't look at me, look at yourself, notice yourself, feel it in your body. And then I told them, I said, trust yourself. Trust yourself, trust the training that you've done, put it into work, and then you will feel like you are 100% you. Instead of being, you know, 50% you, and then there's another 50% of someone else in your head and the things that they're telling you were worrying about how you look. I was like, we're not. I said, whenever you're in the room with me, we're not doing that. You can chill, you can relax, you can trust. And that was a big, and then like the way that the room shifted, it's, it's insane. And then you get even better results. Like I turned the music on and it was even better. And I was like, okay, that's what I need. You know, like that's, that's how we move forward.
Jessica
Yeah, I could not agree with you anymore across the board, both personally in my own experience and what I offer my students. I am completely aligned with what you're saying. And it reminds me of how I still hold so much resentment and anger and sadness towards how some experiences that I had in my training, specifically in college, and how I am still trying to overcome that.
Gabrielle
Oof, yeah.
Jessica
And I also say to myself, what could I have done and who would I be had I actually just been encouraged the whole time? Had I not been so fearful to make a mistake? And something I write about very frequently is this contradiction where in school in particular, we would be asked to move through space with abandon.
Gabrielle
Mmm.
Jessica
and express and be free and be big and all these things. But we were terrified to do anything. And also there was the pressure to keep your body small and be a responsible, good student. That's not, you're being pulled in totally different directions. Saying, be free, be free, go dance. Be big, be you, but don't actually be you, because your body is not good enough and the way you're moving is not good enough and you're not actually gonna be able to succeed in this industry in this way. And to hear you say this with this beautiful, booming career that you've had and that even you have had to overcome that, I think is so important for people to hear, because you might not assume that from the outside.
Gabrielle
I agree, I agree, especially because I've also been someone that I naturally look like the typical or the quote unquote desired dancer. And that's something that I also made sure I have been very aware of in terms of keeping my eyes and my ears open of what is, you know, has been said to me, but then it trickled out because of the way that I grew into my body and this and that and whatever. But I still kept my eyes open and my ears open of what was being said to others that quote unquote had a different body. Like I don't even try and use those words, you know, in class. This past week, I was telling them, it's like there's a movement where you really have to sit in your plie.That's kind of an uncomfortable position, but you have to relax in it to really get the shape. And I was telling them, I was like, listen, I completely understand. It's hard. I said, you know, some of us have different abilities in our bodies. We may have a long Achilles, we may have a short Achilles, you know, I may have this, but you may have this. And I was like, nothing is, neither is wrong. Neither is different in terms of one's less than and one's greater than. I was like, it's just that we're all humans and humans were created differently in the way that it's not a bad or good thing. And the way that we all just have our special abilities. We have our special things. And so I told them, I was like, for me, like, this is a very uncomfortable position, but I find my way and the way that my body is able to do it and how I feel good and how I feel comfortable. And I can still execute the movement with myself. And I was like, so you guys just have to discover, okay, how does, how does this work for me? And the way that I like, what's my structure? How do I make it work for me? Make it still be something that I think is beautiful because you might not think it's beautiful. But what do I think? How do I feel? You know, you may not give me the job. I shouldn't fully care and put that much power in that. I just want to make sure that I feel like I'm doing the most with myself and that's it. So I was telling them, you know, try not to look at your neighbor and be like, man, they're doing it and I wanna do it just like that. I was like, don't try and think of it in a self-deprecating way. I was like, learn from each other, take little things and you're like, you know, I love how I do this, but I wanna do it like her. Or I love how I do this, but then I wanna take this from this person. And I said, but only make sure
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
when you're doing that in your head, it's in a positive way. It's not in a self-deprecating way. And I, again, like when I'm teaching, I try and notice those things. And I also try to make sure that I don't have biased eyes as well, because we grew up in this training that almost, you may not believe it in your head, but it's almost like a subconscious was created for you.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
and you have to like get rid of it and wipe it away. So I also try to make sure that I root, for lack of better words, for what other teachers would consider the underdog in the room. It's another thing that I make sure I am doing and doing well, because it's always that
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
quote unquote underdog where I'm actually looking I'm like man you're fierce you know like you're fierce but because of dance you know society and dance but they think you know a dance body is supposed to be or a dance body is supposed to look like a lot of people wouldn't look your way twice and that's so messed up it's so messed up and it's like it's just a vow that I
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
made to myself and I'm really trying to make sure I'm constantly staying true to. Because I don't like when you know you also walk, you talk a big game but you don't like put it into action. So I also try and keep myself in line.
Jessica
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think about that for myself because I loved ballet in high school. It's all I wanted to do. And when I was in eighth grade, I remember this so clearly. I was looking into the window of like the older kids ballet. And one of the dance, like a dance mom came up to me. And she said to me, you know, it's a shame because you're so good at ballet, but you're never going to be able to do it.
Gabrielle
Wow.
Jessica
I was like, Oh, right. It was the first time it really clicked that yeah, I don't have this body that's conducive to ballet and so I'll never be able to actually pursue it. And that's absolutely the truth in terms of what exists currently. And I, and it made sense because yeah, I started Pointe and I immediately got Achilles' tendonitis, like my body was just not built for it. I mean, for, for what existed. But
Gabrielle
Yeah.
Jessica
the more I reflect on it now, I'm like, why can't I just do ballet for fun? Why can't there be some show somewhere where I can do ballet and I don't have to look like all of the ballerinas? But I love it and I can do it in my own way. And I think I would be really curious to hear what you felt in school because like we're talking about the difference and having something that like these teachers stereotypically define as a successful body or movement quality, whatever it is. But for most people, it's not about, I felt that in school and in many programs, they lack understanding how to nurture the artist and the dancer and what is possible and they
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
for better or for worse, like whether it's a box that they think is wonderful or a box they think is horrible, they put you in these boxes. So I'd be so curious to hear about what your experience, what I know it's a very big question four years and a very intensive program, but maybe you could just touch upon some things.
Gabrielle
Yeah, you know, my experience was interesting. I technically, in technical terms, I had a great-ish experience. You know, like I was seen from day one by one of our modern teachers, Nancy Lushington, and She was definitely like a big, you know, in my years there, like she loved me and she pushed me and this and that. And I had a couple of teachers that were like that. But the main ones that made a difference in my life were my teachers of color at Marymount, my Pedro, my Juan Carlos, my funny Flavio and Ms. Commendedor, those were honestly my pillars for me personally. I don't know anyone else's experience, but for me personally, they kept me going in terms of being able to have real conversations with them about the fact that sometimes in college I wondered if I was just a token in terms of marketing and advertisement because I just so happen to be an amazing dancer who was black. And our program really needed to be diversified and it still needs to be diversified.
Jessica
Yep, desperately.
Gabrielle
And I still check in every now and then. And honestly, soon I'm planning on writing them because I want to, now that I'm getting out of BH, I wanna be more involved and helping diversify that program and really getting them to understand what that means. You know, it doesn't mean that I need you to offer African classes and replace a ballet. I just want you to be teaching ballet and accept and learn how to teach certain bodies that you think don't belong in ballet. I want to completely dismantle that kind of structure. I don't need to, you know, go back to King Louis, whatever, and say that we can't do the plie or the tendu like this. Like, I don't, that's too much. It's already, it's grounded. It's there at the end of the day. It's dope training that we need. It's a foundation. Like, boom, I accept it. But how are we teaching it? So yeah, I, I just, the only thing I struggled with in school was just going back and forth feeling like, am I this token or do you really love me for me? And I think I went back and forth just because I saw so many students of color in that program that I think should have shined more and been given more opportunity. And I think that, you know, we should have been talked to more and asked, Do you feel safe? Do you feel seen? Do you feel understood? How could we do better? What could we do more of? And not just think that you know, you're doing it and not think that you're doing it just because you have someone like me like and I felt this This like Pressure in a way sometimes because I was given a lot of attention and I was given a lot of opportunity. At the same time, I still had to work hard for it. Like I was in offices, like I want to be in ballet five, you know, by the time I was in sophomore year. And I went to Juan Carlos and he was like, all right, we're going to work towards that. I'm going to get you, like, we're going to get you in ballet five. And I worked hard and I, I try not to take anything from myself that I did put that work in. But I also know that I was a beautiful dancer, a beautiful black dancer who also did pointe and this and that and also was very good at modern. I know that I was incredible for marketing in a way. I knew that. I just wanted to see more of us being given that attention and that was something that when I look back at college was the one thing that bothered me, which is why I've gone back to talk about things like this and I try and stay in touch, I try and check in. I try and let them know like something that would have really changed me was having more teachers of color. I had one black woman at the front of the room while I was at Marymount and she was a sub for Horton. It was just a sub. Karen, I remember her, just a sub. And we needed more, you know, we needed more. And that was something that I wish could have been better because it was like, I was still dealing with things from my childhood. I came to New York because it's New York and I'm thinking this must be better. Because it's New York, you know, like there's everybody that looks like everything and speaks every language is here. Then I got to Marymount and I'm looking around and I'm like, wow, it's a lot of like, a lot of white faces, not a lot of me.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Mostly white faces.
Gabrielle
And then there were mostly white faces. And then the ones that look like me started with me in freshman year and then they kind of trickled out. And that was, yeah, that was definitely my experience and something that I am still trying to find a way to make sure I have a bigger foot in the door there. Because I want to help the next generation. Like I want to make sure that people get there and they feel more seen than I did. It's a big, it's a big thing for me for sure.
Jessica
Yeah, and then you very clearly continued with this kind of advocacy spirit with Ballet Hispanico. Can you talk about that?
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm, I did. Yeah, so we are the largest Latinx dance organization, and we are really big in, you know, doing a lot of community arts partnership work. And, and our mission is to bring a bigger voice, not just to Latinx people, but BIPOC people. And it's a beautiful mission. One of my favorite things is that I was able to be in a company that not only dance-wise and movement-wise, is doing a lot of things that I love, but we also have the opportunity to go out in the community in every state that we go in, every different city, and it doesn't matter where we are, you know, it could be the most uncomfortable to the most comfortable place, but we go. You know, we've gone to teach in jails and juvenile detentions, we've gone to just really eye-opening areas and parts of the states and around the world. So I was able to continue and definitely found my voice a little more within advocacy being with BH. And it started with, you know, our community work, me finding my voice in that advocacy. And then it started with looking and seeing, oh, how could we do better, you know, as an organization, how could we do better as a company and making sure that I spoke up? And what I have been grateful for, especially within this past year is that I do feel heard in a way, like they, they listen and I appreciate that no one has heard me speaking up and gotten like offended or angry or anything like that. They, they, it's almost like they realized, Oh, you know what, you're right. Like, why don't we do something about this? Or why don't we try this in a different way? So that's been nice because I would say as dancers, even when you get into the professional world, I think especially when you get into the professional world, speaking up is scary. It's it's very intimidating because you're at a point where, you know, when it’s school, it's like, what are you gonna do to me kind of thing? I'm paying my tuition, blah, blah. But now that you're paying me, you know, I have benefits here and I love being here and I don't want to speak up and get on anyone's bad side because then what about my career? What about my job?
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
It's not easy, you know, getting into an amazing major company and staying there for forever. It doesn't come like that for a lot of people. And I recognize how lucky I was. It was my first audition and I got the contract. I still had three months left in school.
Jessica
That's crazy.
Gabrielle
So I was able to spend those three months knowing I had a contract, which is insane. And I knew I was in this incredible position that I, like, I couldn't, I couldn't, you know, take for granted. So yeah, the fact that I had all that, it took me a while to speak up about certain things. But once I did, I'm really happy I did, because not only did they listen in a way and respond, and still, I'm still speaking up about certain things, and they're still responding, and we're having a back and forth that I think is so important, especially for an organization of color, to grow and actually break the barriers, not just externally, but internally.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
And I think it's something that organizations need to realize and look in the mirror a little more, like we are doing all this amazing work on the outside, but we also have to make sure that on the inside we're whole and we are talking to our people and we're making sure that we feel good and we feel seen and we feel heard and we're collaborating and we are working as a collective and as an actual union. So I'm definitely grateful for that part of it, but also the part that as dancers in the company, when I started to speak up, I started to see people finding their own voice a little more. And that's something that walking away from the company in this next month, if I can just leave them with anything it’s to continue to say something. If you feel like something's wrong or you think something could be better and you want to help and, if you, if you feel anything, you should say, you should say it because why not? Why not? And, I've been very much encouraging the dancers to do that more. And I, again, I started to feel that responsibility in a different way and that power in a different way in terms of leading and how I do it. And my main objective wasn't for me, it was honestly for them to find their voice. Like I was realizing I was starting to find myself and how freeing it was to
Jessica
Hmm.
Gabrielle
be like, you know, I want to go talk to my boss about this and why not? And I started to impromptu like knock on his door. I'd be like, Hey sir, just want to talk about this. And you know what happened? Our relationship grew and our relationship got better. And yeah, and we've had, you know, uncomfortable moments or uncomfortable conversations, but we got through the uncomfortableness to get to something more positive and lighter and freer that's on the other side. And I just wanted to show them, and I wanted to put myself in that vulnerable position for a second to show like, you know, this is actually good, this is how we grow. And you deserve to use your voice. You deserve to find that within yourself. We're in our early 20s, we're young. If we don't find it now, once we leave here, whatever we do next, I don't want to be walked all over. I want to use this as a platform to not only learn and grow, but to lead, to show that there is more possibility in what we do. We're not just robots dancing and doing movement. We're way more than that. We are articulate, beautiful human beings who have responsibility of teaching younger generations going into these communities and going into these schools and them looking up and being like, oh my God, I see myself on stage. And, you know, little girls coming up to me and saying, you look like my Barbie, because black Barbie dolls started coming out. And knowing that we are in that position of power and power that's mixed with love and unity and growth, it's so amazing to find your voice in that, and it's so worth it. So that's been like, you know, from feeling those things at school, and then now transitioning into being in the company, being there for six years, that's been my journey. And I'm very grateful for it, because whatever I do next, wherever I am, I think that I'm gonna be able to add something to that place because I was able to experiment at Ballet Hispanico in terms of getting my voice out and feeling heard and saying no, saying yes, saying no, saying let me think about it, saying actually, I think we could do this better or this better and then getting a response that was good or that, yeah, we need to work through it, but we're working through it and that's what matters. So that's been my career journey so far.
Jessica
It's so inspiring. And when you just, it's so hard to speak up and use your voice. And like you're saying, especially in this professional context, were there moments particularly at the earlier part of when you were starting to speak out about things where it didn't really go so well or you had to really push through a lot of fear in particular, just trying to give a little bit of inspiration to someone who might be really hesitant.
Gabrielle
Yeah… Yeah, I would say… There was like a moment where I didn't appreciate how we were being spoken to and led by a particular person at the front of the room. And it was scary because we…I appreciated the physical skills in terms of we were very, like we looked so clean and we were so on top of our game. But I couldn't get past the fact that mental health wise, we were being so affected. It was such a hard time for us because as dancers, we were trying to go back and forth of, but we look so good and we're so together and they have us looking so amazing as a group. But I'm going home and I have anxiety and this person's going home and they're bawling crying. This person had to get on antidepressants and they're trying to figure out why and realizing, oh, it's stemming from this. And I saw us going through many different things and I was like, this is not good. And it was a hard thing to bring attention to and speak up about because we had just never done that before in that way. And we had a way, an ideal of what we wanted. And I am, so we're a part of a union and I'm a union representative. So I have the responsibility of essentially bringing dancer concerns to the union or anything that we feel needs to be done or we need to go through the union with. I am one of those people, it's me and another person. So at the time, I not only had the responsibility of how I was feeling personally, but I also had a group of about 14, 15 dancers who were kind of relying on me to figure out how can we change this. So we did bring it to our union and they helped us out and the company did respond in a beautiful way in terms of trying to make sure we felt heard and figuring it out. The scariest thing for me was having a meeting and in that meeting actually feeling all of the emotions that I had been feeling. And it was in that meeting I broke down and I realized, oh, this is actually really affecting us in a really bad way. And it was at the end of that meeting that I made a very bold statement. And I was referring to this particular person at the front of the room and I said, you know, they either change or they go. And that's not for me to figure out. That's for you to figure out. They either change or they go. And that was a statement where I was like, whoa. Like it came out of my mouth and I was like, ah, okay, here we go. You know, I just pressed go on that ride. And it was a scary statement, not only because when it came out my mouth, I was like, shit, that is, wow, that's a big bold statement. But then I saw in the eyes of the people that I was speaking to, as soon as I said it, they were like, oh, okay. We need to make sure we're doing what we need to do and do better and help. And make sure that these dancers feel heard, they feel seen, they feel safe. We did not feel safe going into the studio and we didn't know how to bring it to anyone because we're not trained, we don't grow up in our training to speak up. We grow up to be quiet and just do it. Oh, it hurts so bad, okay, who cares, do it. Oh, I'm bleeding, it doesn't matter, work through it. Oh, I'm crying, it doesn't matter, wipe your tears, go on stage, do this. And from a young age, you know, from being little kids who's like, I don't want to do this. And they're like, I don't care. You need to go do it. You know, and you're crying and they're in the wing trying to get you to get the stuff. It's, you know, it starts from there. And then it just builds. So I would say that was, that was a big one for me. And I'm using they and very vague terms only because I also believe in not, I don't like to, demonize or go after people in a certain way.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
If I've seen that you have moved on to learn and grow and have hopefully gotten better, and for me, I wish anyone, if I've ever experienced that with someone, I actually wish you the best at the end of it. Because for me, I wanted to go about it in the way of I'm not trying to break you down. I want you to grow. I want you to like learn from this. I want you to do better and get better. And I hope that you do. And I hope that, you know, they did. And, you know, that role ended up shifting. They're no longer with us. And that was something that I know I had involvement in, but also I know it wasn't like my, I didn't have power in making that decision. I just had power in bringing it to the forefront and being like, you guys do what you will, but please know that we need something to change. Because if it doesn't change, we cannot be in this space. It's just too detrimental to us. And I'm really grateful for being heard out and action was taken. I'm grateful for the action. Sometimes I'm a little sad that we couldn't work through it because I also really appreciated the skills that they had in a certain way. I appreciated that they really pushed me. I mean, my dancing completely changed, you know, in those months. Completely changed. And I am grateful for that part of it, which is why I wish, you know, maybe things could have been done better and it didn't have to end like that, but also, you know, that's life. You know, that's, you never, life unfolds in different ways. So that was a big one. And I think what I can tell anyone is it's worth it. It is, it's worth it. But also I will be honest and say it is scary. It's very, very scary. You know, I still, even talking about it right now, I have a little anxiety, like, Oh, is someone going to hear this? And then are they going to think that I'm also like, you know, I don't care. I don't care. It's my experience. I am still being positive about it. I'm still being honest as well simultaneously. And for me, I'm still showing that there's possibility because we did it, which means that I'm showing us in a positive light. You know?
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
There was negativity, there was turmoil, whatever. There was some people messed up and this and that, but there's also the other end of it. And that has to be the focus of what we can do, how we can do it in the right way. Sometimes things fall, you know, pieces do fall and you learn from that how can we do better next time? And now that we're on the other side of it, you know, I'm grateful that we were heard and action was taken and that's what matters. You know, that's what matters.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. And it circles back to what you're saying when you tell your students how their self-worth is so vital and so important, because when we as artists and dancers believe that we just need to accept any scrap or any crumb that's given to us, then that's why people like that can stay in power and why they haven't been challenged before and they haven't had to change their behavior, because, Oh, well, I'm so grateful I'm turning into this beautiful dancer. And if that's what it takes for you to treat me like that, I will stick it out because I was trained to be a good student and a good girl and a good dancer. And I listen and I take it in. So the fact that the only thing that can possibly change the behavior of those people in power is the dancer, is the artist who says no.
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
who says, I won't sign up for this, I won't tolerate this. And like you're saying that it's extremely challenging, but it is the only way that it changes. And also when I think back to people in college specifically, that's where most of my pain and trauma in this industry and this art has come from, anyone who I still feel some kind of way about, I have a ton of empathy for them. I think all the time, how horrific was your experience that in all of the growth and evolution since you were training and dancing, you still couldn't come around to be kinder or more supportive or more understanding. You're still acting in that way and everyone's trying their best. Everyone's doing their best. So that's your best. That's the best that you're trying to do right now. And it's impacting me and my colleagues and my peers
Gabrielle
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
and future generations that negatively. So, yeah.
Gabrielle
Yeah, yeah, it's a big one. It's a big one. And I do the same. I always think about, or I try and take into consideration where people come from, what's their background. We are the way we are because of the things that we've been through, the people that were in our lives. That's not, so I always take into consideration and have empathy for what made you the way that you are and what made you, you know, into this kind of teacher because you had that kind of teacher to the point where you're still talking about that kind of teacher, but you're not realizing that teacher and the way that you're talking about them and the things that you're telling us they used to say to you is very verbally abusive
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
Is very deprecating is very, you know, if I make you mad, you're gonna do better. I'm sorry, but actually, I don't work like that. I don't work like that. I just I don't. If you make me mad, actually, you're gonna make me come for you. And then that's worse. So you're actually screwing yourself over.
Jessica
Hmm
Gabrielle
because that's where we're at now. We're in a different time. And I will say the pandemic was a big awakening in the dance world in terms of people trying to speak up more and finding their voice. I want people to get back to that. I want people to get back to that mentality and that feeling of when we were at home and all we could do was think about how things should and should be better and could be better and using our voices and speaking out. And I wish that we could get back to that a little more because now that we're back to work and back to quote unquote normal, I think people are getting comfortable and we're forgetting about that fire that we have in us when we had time to sit and reel over these things and be like, you know, that's so wrong. That's so wrong. We should not be doing it like this. This should not be said to us. You know, I should not be asked to do this, you know, run this solo. And by the fifth time I'm like dying and you get in my face and because I'm not doing it the way that you think I should be doing it and you think it needs to be better and better even though by the fifth time I'm running it, my body is giving out and you get in my face and you say, are you present? And you step up to me and that happened to me and you step up to me and when you do that, you think that I'm going to be like, oh, I'm good at this and I'm gonna do a little blah. Because people have done that to you before, because you've abused your power and unfortunately you were with people that did not yet have that sense of self-worth and self-advocacy. But guess what, I did and I do. And you tried it with the wrong one.
Jessica
Yes.
Gabrielle
because it was in that moment where I was like, you know what, I see what's happening. I'm making the decision. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm not watching other people go through this. I don't care who you are, what you've done, where you've been in life. I do not care because I see how this is not only negatively affecting us, but it's affecting our relationships with each other. It's affecting our relationships with our workplace. I don't wanna feel like I can't
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
say anything just because of this one person where there's actually people behind you that, you know, listen to us that took us into consideration. But we I had to get over that hump of that person to make sure that we were heard and seen and that they knew what was going on as well. Because and that's another thing. Sometimes it's like, no one knows what's going on. If you don't say anything, they think everything's okay. They come in and they see the end result. Yes, we look amazing. Yes, we look good. Yes, we're clean. Yes, we're this. The audience is happy. But what's happening in the inside? What's happening on our daily? And that was something that was happening on our daily and I had to, nope. Nope. And I'm happy. I'm happy I did it. It is a scary thing to talk about in a way, but for me, it's...It's vital for people to know that there is possibility and there is positivity in speaking up. And that it's so worth it. It is so worth it.
Jessica
Absolutely. Oh, you are the best. So what is exciting you about this new journey that you're about to embark on? And also what led to deciding to step away from the company?
Gabrielle
So what led to me to decide to step away, I think is just, I have so much in me that I just want to tap into different areas of myself. I definitely physically and artistically, I could be at the company for another four years. You know, I could be a 10 year, like my husband was actually. He just finished his 10th year with the company and I could definitely do that. I'm at the peak of my dancing, I would say. You know, I don't get nervous when I go on stage anymore. I don't. I feel good. I trust myself. It took me a minute to get there, but I got there. But I just there's so much more I want to do. There's so much different opportunities that I have had to turn down because I was with the company that I don't regret. I'm grateful for my time there. I'm grateful for what I've learned. I'm grateful for what I've been able to do there. And I am physically leaving as a dancer, but I am very, I want to make sure that my presence stays. I'm teaching and in whatever way, you know, I still keep my connection with my boss because I know how much power my voice holds and I don't want to, I don't want to leave that side of myself because there I'm able to tap into that advocacy part in a way in that community, you know, working in that community and I want to keep that. So I am ending as a dancer, but, You know, I want to make sure that I'm still keeping my toes in the door there, because it's an amazing organization. You know, our mission is incredible. What we're doing and what they're trying to continue to do is something that's so needed, and I just want to make sure that I'm, you know, I'm still going to stay part of it in some way. And then, you know, what I'm gonna do next, what I'm excited about, I think is kind of the unknown. I think is like, the kind of going where the wind blows and being okay with it and just doing, you know, different fun things. I recently went to like a Nike casting and I don't know if I'm gonna get it, but it was just something amazing, you know? They asked to see me and you're like, why not? And there's a company that I work for with my husband in Chicago called PARA.MAR and we love going there together because we get to dance as a couple. So I love to be able to tap into that and partner with my husband and experience dance in that way. I didn't get to partner with him too much in the company. It was something that we always wanted to do, but we each had kind of our, We call them our work wives and husbands in terms of partnering that we loved and we had been dancing with those people before we got together and meshed well. So we kept it, but we didn't get to tap into that side of us as dancers. So I'm excited to do that. And I'm ready to bring what I've learned in terms of self-worth and self-advocacy so far. I have spoken up in a very large organization. So I'm kind of like, if I can do that, then what can I do in smaller places that need help or that need to look in the mirror and need someone to tell them, like, you know, we could do this differently and we could go about this better. I'm grateful for the fact that I was able to use my voice in such a large organization. You know, it's not, it's scary. But I will say they heard me for the most part and I have to thank them and be grateful for that. That they continue to hear me but also appreciate that and see that I am also not one to really believe fully in cancel culture. And the way that, especially for our organization, we're just, we're doing too much good. You know, a lot of these places are doing a lot of good. So I'm like, I'm not, I don't want to dismantle anything. I want us to grow. And I want to be someone from the inside who knows what we do, who knows all the work that I see them putting in to say, hey guys, by the way, I think we could do this better. We should tweak this here because I don't want someone from the outside to come in and like ruin it, ruin what we're doing. Who doesn't know the ins and outs. Who doesn't know the hardship. Who doesn't know the racism that we receive. The doors that we have to try and knock down and the walls that we're trying to knock down, they don't know that side. So as someone from the inside who sees it and does know it, I want to be the one to have that conversation and start that conversation. So I...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
I'm excited to be able to bring that in different spaces, different realms. And then also I'm excited just to kind of have fun. You know, modeling is really fun. I've met really cool people. I've been on really amazing sets and I'm excited just to do more of that. I want to do more commercial work because I want to be able to go do a fun gig and then leave
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
you know, and be grateful for that time, and then go do a different fun gig and just be able to do that. All I've known since, as soon as I graduated from college, was this very clean and specific structure. And I am excited to just kind of shake it up a bit and have the question mark of life. I've never, in my career, I haven't had a
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
question mark. I've been very comfortable, very grateful, you know, for my, I know I'm going to get my weekly salary. I have amazing insurance. I'm traveling around the world. I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I'm so happy I was able to experience it right out of college because I actually think it gave me such amazing tools to be able to move on and just explore that part of myself. And I would, if any advice I can give to people who are thinking about doing something like that, yes, it is scary. I am nervous as all hell, but I'm also excited about the fact that I'm gonna be able to tap into different parts of myself. And that's really important. We have one life to live. So at some point you just gotta be like, all right, here I go. You're taking a chance.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Gabrielle
So yeah, I'm excited for that part of this new journey that I'm...
Jessica
Well, I cannot tell you how inspired I am and how much I love every time we get to talk, even though it's not that much, but I just love it every single time. You are such a brilliant, beautiful human. I said it before, I'll say it again. And I appreciate everything that you are and everything that you do. And I am so excited for you to embark on this new journey. You have so much that you've built already and now it's just going to keep evolving and I am so grateful that I get to keep watching and I hope we get to do stuff together. Maybe a little workshop or something.
Gabrielle
Oh my god, me too. Yes, I would love to.
Jessica
We're very aligned with what we teach our students so that could be a fun thing we can create together. Thank you so much and the absolute best of luck with absolutely everything that you're ever gonna do.
Gabrielle
Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, but also thank you for doing this. Like having a podcast like this, I think it's really important for people to be able to say things and feel comfortable because you never know who's going to hear it and you never know, you know, how it's going to change or help them. And so thank you for letting me be part of this. I'm really grateful.
Jessica
Thank you for talking to me about this for many years and for saying, okay, whenever you end up doing it, I'm ready. Whenever, years later. Okay, I love you. I'll talk soon.
Gabrielle
Yes, I know.
Gabrielle
Yes, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Love you too, thank you. Bye.