Capturing Life with Heidi Miami Marshall

SHOW NOTES

In today’s episode, Heidi Miami Marshall discusses:

• the importance of celebrating individuality in acting

• the need to remove the concept of right and wrong in artistic expression

• the connection between personal experiences and the interpretation of scenes 

• the challenges of navigating grief while immersed in professional work

• the spiritual nature of art and the profound impact it can have on both the artist and the audience

• embracing a non-linear journey and the importance of self-care

• the empowering experience of challenging limitations 

Heidi Miami Marshall’s career has spanned over 25 years as an Acting Coach, Film and Theater Director, Casting Director, and Acting Studio Owner. Originally, Heidi was the lead Casting Director at The Telsey Office for the Broadway musical RENT, as well as for 70+ projects in theater, film, TV, commercial, and voiceover. Heidi has directed on the Broadway shows THE ADDAMS FAMILY, BAZ LUHRMANN'S LA BOHÈME, and THE COLOR PURPLE.

Now the owner of a top acting studio, she’s coached countless actors into roles, and her on-camera training classes are highly regarded by reps and casting directors. She is frequently hired by directors and production studios to prep actors for auditions, screen tests and performance. Talent spans from new actors to Emmy award-winning. Notable collaborators include John Turturro, Baz Luhrmann, and Rob Marshall (no relation). Heidi's clients have graced the big and small screen, from indie to blockbuster, plus countless Broadway stages. She recently coached René Pérez (aka Residente) in Sundance Grand Jury Winner and Tribeca Spotlight Narrative film IN THE SUMMERS.

Also a director, Heidi’s simultaneous filmmaker career provides a keen sensitivity to what is needed from actors. Her work includes S.P.I.C. (Vail, Soho Intl', Bowery), MORE THAN (LAByrinth Theater Co.), MUSCLE (Cinequest, Sun Valley), AMBER, A THROUGH M (Cinequest, Palm Beach), and more. Heidi is the recipient of a NY Drama League Fellowship and American Film Institute’s Directing Workshop for Women.

Follow along on Heidi’s journey: @heidimarshallstudio

---

TRANSCRIPT

Jessica

Hello and welcome to The Story Project. Today’s guest is Heidi Miami Marshall whose career has spanned over 25 years as an Acting Coach, Film and Theater Director, Casting Director, and Acting Studio Owner.

Originally, Heidi was the lead Casting Director at The Telsey Office for the Broadway musical RENT, as well as for 70+ projects in theater, film, TV, commercial, and voiceover. Heidi has directed on the Broadway shows THE ADDAMS FAMILY, BAZ LUHRMANN'S LA BOHÈME, and THE COLOR PURPLE.

Now the owner of a top acting studio, she’s coached countless actors into roles, and her on-camera training classes are highly regarded by reps and casting directors. She is frequently hired by directors and production studios to prep actors for auditions, screen tests and performance. Talent spans from new actors to Emmy award-winning actors who have graced the big and small screen, from indie to blockbuster, plus countless Broadway stages.

Also a director, Heidi’s simultaneous filmmaker career provides a keen sensitivity to what is needed from actors. Her work includes S.P.I.C., MORE THAN, MUSCLE, AMBER, A THROUGH M, and more. Heidi is the recipient of a NY Drama League Fellowship and American Film Institute’s Directing Workshop for Women.

In today’s episode, Heidi Miami Marshall discusses celebrating individuality in acting, removing the concept of right and wrong in artistic expression, interpreting scene work, navigating grief, the spiritual nature of art, and embracing a non-linear journey.

Please enjoy this conversation with Heidi Miami Marshall…

Okay, I am here with the one and only Heidi Marshall, who I love and am obsessed with and appreciate and adore. And I'm so grateful that you are here with me today.

Heidi Marshall

I'm so happy to be here with you and I'm a little bit concerned that you're obsessed with me.

Jessica

obsessed. Like, obsessed.

Heidi Marshall

I know you don't really, really, really mean that. But maybe something sticks with you between us.

Jessica

I mean it in a way, yes, it does. I'm obsessed, I'll explain, in a way that you, I feel that you really see me. I appreciate all that you have given to me through your classes. And I know that everyone that I know who has been in your classes feels the same way about you. And you are very approachable. And what I appreciate about you the most as a teacher is that you're not going to...You let us be who we are while also giving firm feedback and guidance. And I feel like you're able to really celebrate the individuality of each actor that comes to you. And that is not always the case, both in acting and in other crafts that you can study. And that is where my obsession comes from. It's really that I admire you and appreciate what you do and do feel connected to you and grateful that I've been able to work with you. That's what it is.

Heidi Marshall

Thank you for sharing it in that context and describing it that way because that really means a lot to me. When I teach, I know that I really like to see people where they're at and meet them where they are and not put something onto them and it's hard. It's hard to not do that sometimes because also you see someone's potential and you get really excited about it and you and you start cheering for this thing to happen that you really, really, really want to have happen in that moment or in that scene or in their career. But it's it's really. More special when we can just meet each other where we're at and build off of that. So I really appreciate you saying that because I think about that a lot when I'm in the classroom or when I'm coaching people. And I really am cautious about kind of overstepping into someone's own personal territory as they're creating their art, if that makes any sense at all.

Jessica

It does make sense. And what do you mean when you say you don't want to put something on somebody? Because I literally yesterday was talking to my boyfriend about how I feel like brilliant teachers and programs will help you remove what is in your way, take off the layers. And whereas where I went to school for dance and I'm sure other programs and teachers, it does feel like you're just being weighted down by all these different options rather than freed by these options and these tools. And so it's interesting that I was actually trying to explain it yesterday. Could you speak to that a little bit?

Heidi Marshall

Hmm. Yeah, well, in an educational environment, and I did, I went through a conservatory as well, and I definitely understand that experience as a student going through it. And I think in the educational environment, there's an agenda, there's a curriculum that a, let's say it's a four -year program, they know they want to start you with one technique and then move you through all of these other techniques so that they can say they have officially trained you as a performer. And that to me is useful and it was very useful for me to learn different techniques and approaches to creating art and in our case theater and acting and all of them. For me, I studied directing. So it's really useful to go through all of that.

But then, what happens is the actor or the artist or the director has to navigate through that and find their own personal way and their own personal style. So for example, you might train in Meisner and then you discover something else, Gotowski, physical theater, and then you realize, wow, actually that's the kind of artist that I feel more connected to, that artistry and that self -expression. And so when you're in an educational environment, I think you're put through someone else's agenda. And that gets very confusing. And especially if you're getting graded and you want to be approved by your teachers or you want to stay in the program, you feel like you have to be good at everything versus finding your own style. So when I'm working with… actors. I had this funny thing. I don't have a great memory about specifics. I have a very visceral experience with acting and things that I read. I'll read a novel and I'm in my imagination. I couldn't tell you what the exact passage was. I couldn't quote from the book. And so I'm similar in

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

my understanding of techniques, I couldn't tell you exactly Stanislavski. I couldn't tell you exactly Meisner. So I've absorbed a lot of information and training. I did a lot of viewpoints work with Anne Bogart back in the day. And, you know, there's a lot of pieces of information that I have that's all in there. But when I'm working with people, I'm not working with any one technique.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

So I don't end up in a situation where I'm trying to put an approach or technique onto a person. If anything, I'm constantly trying to find out what is my approach and what is my technique. And I try to put words to it and articulate it and then pass that over to actors in any way that might be useful for an actor. You know, this is how I approach it. And I know I'm pulling from a lot of different influences. And I'll just call it the Heidi approach. You know, it's not something that even follows ABC. So therefore when I pass it to you, when I say, Hey, Jessica, let's approach it this way. What I'm actually expecting is for you to come up with the Jessica approach.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

So if, and I think that that, I will say that that I attract to me certain types of actors who are interested in that, who are interested in finding their own artistry and finding their own philosophy. Sometimes I can feel with an actor that they get a little frustrated with like,

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I just want you to tell me what the rules are or if I do A and then B and then C and then D, I will have completed the entire alphabet and I will be able to book that job. And it just doesn't work for me with my sensibility, with my memory. I'm much more about let's find our way. And so maybe that's part of what quote unquote saves me from

Jessica

Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

putting something onto someone because I don't know any other way to interact with an artist other than meeting them where they're at. And that actually helps me a lot as a director as well because I'm also a director. So when I'm on set, I have a skill definitely, which is to pivot with, okay, this actor needs this and this actor needs this and they are not the same. And so let me work with that, fluidly and and move through that and that might go to the whole crew and the team and my my collaborators and my producers as well, but being able to respond intuitively with each other I think is an important part of the collaboration process anyway, I Hope that starts to address a little bit It's hard to put into words things that are so visceral and intuitive and for me I function very much intuitively. So sometimes people ask me how do you do this or that and I have to stumble around to find how I do that.

Jessica

Yeah, me too. Mm hmm. No, that's so helpful to hear it fleshed out like that. And a couple things. First of all, it's the most it's the way that you can most empower an actor, I think, by saying, No, we're going to come up with your specific set of tools that maybe you can identify, maybe you can label but you probably can't. And I think the act of, with any art probably, you take everything that you are, whether it's a set of tools and techniques, but also your life experience and your connections and how you're feeling in a given day. And you're putting it into this giant swirl -y storm inside of your body and then letting it come out. And so you're teaching actually in the way of supporting and empowering artists, not just giving one specific technique that is right or wrong. Like I think a lot of the time in those kinds of programs and with those kinds of teachers, not only are they giving you a specific technique, which is fine, but then if you don't use that, you're wrong or you're doing something wrong. And then you come onto set or you come into a class and you have this very...

Heidi Marshall

Yes.

Jessica

narrow way of thinking about it and approaching what you're doing, as opposed to trust actually trusting yourself and saying, Oh, I actually can just come forward with wherever I am right now with everything that I have learned up until this point, versus saying, Oh, I need to flip through these specific rules that I have learned. And that is one major thing that I learned from you was ridding myself of the right and wrong. Like there's no, that to me was so hard, is so hard. That's so Heidi. She's dancing, we're both dancing.

Heidi Marshall

I'm giving a high five, a double high five because then I know I have fulfilled my mission as a fellow artist and teacher. Just to really help you, I love what you just said. Everything you just said was so incredible because one, you're just so articulate and you're so heartfelt as you describe it all.

Jessica

Yeah. Thank you.

Heidi Marshall

But just being able to hear you express how you have been working to rid yourself of right and wrong is the core of how I know we have to work as artists. You know, there was a movie about Jackson Pollock. Remember this with Ed Harris? Did you ever see this film? I'm blanking on the title right now. And it was a.

Jessica

No.

Heidi Marshall

really wonderful film. And one of the things that really stood out for me, aside from Ed Harris's incredible, phenomenal performance, was having I actually part of my turning point when I was moving from high school into college was I was actually trying to decide between going into art history or theater. And I loved art. I had this incredible class. It was a humanities class and we just studied art history and I took it as this elective in high school to just have some fun and relieve myself of trying to be an A plus student who could get into the best college. And I took this humanities class and I was so enamored with learning about art and

Jessica

There it is.

Heidi Marshall

the thing that excited me the most was starting to learn about the artists themselves. That's when I fell in love with Georgia O 'Keeffe and I loved her artwork already, but it was her, the artists that really, really inspired me. So back to the Ed Harris Jackson Pollock. It was a really interesting film for me because I had already had this thought about Jackson Pollock's art, like he's just splattering art. He's just splattering paint, I mean. And is that really art? The big question of is that art? Is a red dot on the wall, is that art? And when I watched that film, I got a sense of who the artist was and what the art was as a reflection of his inner life and what he was going through as a human being. And it just clicked. Everything really clicked for me. Ah.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

Yes, art is always going to be an expression of what is going on inside of you. Everything you do is going to be an expression of what is churning inside of you personally. And that has been, I think, my kind of the search for eternal life. Like that's my constant chase is with each artist, what is your understanding of this? What is your expression of this scene? There are details in here, there are details that the writer gives us, clues that the director maybe gives you, maybe something on the breakdown, maybe a casting director hints at some important information and backstory, but in the end, it's always going to be, what do you interpret? How does it hit you? How do you lift those words off the page? So when you say, I'm trying to rid myself, of the right and wrong way and approach to do this. That to me is a step towards liberating yourself as an artist to say, F it, there is no right or wrong way. And there is my understanding of this, this story, this character. And then you start to create ownership over it. And those are the actors that I know I love watching work. I loved watching Ed Harris take.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

ownership over that role of Jackson Pollock. I loved it. I love it when I see you take over a role and find your way in it with your own little quirks and your own charm and your own attitude, whatever's going on for you. So, and actually as I'm saying this, I'm thinking, I'm going to bring this back into my teaching again, the next class, whenever that comes up, because I want to keep, I want to hit that some more for people.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I want to hit even further. How do you relate to this? How does this speak to you? I have a funny, interesting story that is evolving for me right now. I have something called the Acting Collective and the Acting Collective is a scenario where I coach once a week for just an hour and people can sign up and for the hot seats, you know, the working seats, I want to bring a scene. So I was experimenting and I thought, you know what, I'll pick a theme. How about I pick a theme and actors can find a scene that is in that theme and bring it in. So I would pick a theme, let's say grief and two people would bring a scene in. And to my surprise, one might be a really obvious thematic grief drama scene.

And the other one is a comedy. And I'm thinking, wow, they think this scene has a theme of grief, fascinating. So then we start working on it. That theme would have never occurred to me, that that's the theme in that scene or that genre even. And so then we start pulling it out and it totally works and it's interesting. It's not even on, it's not on the nose as we say, but it's buried in there. So now I'm on this new kick where I will still, sometimes I'll say, here's a theme betrayal. And then people will bring a scene in. And again, sometimes it's obvious and sometimes it's really not. And so the kick that I'm on is, wow, we could almost put, any theme on any scene.

And that's how personal we can make it. That's incredible to me. And that actually has been happening to me. I had a very profound year last year where my father passed away. And so the theme of grief was, you know, really high for me. And people would be bringing in scenes for coachings. I'm like, there's grief here. You know. And I'm like, okay, I know this is just a procedural. This is a doctor scene. And you're supposed to play the doctor who is totally in control, but on the other side, you're dealing with someone who has grief and who's in grief. You know, then all of a sudden I was seeing the world through that lens. So this is becoming very interesting to me that again, wherever you're at, I think it's always relevant and it's always going to shine light on the material if you let it, if you bring it in. And is it always appropriate within that genre or that context of that character's backstory? Not 100%, but you can tweak it and it can exist somewhere in there.

Jessica

Wherever you go, there you are, first of all. And it really just makes me think of life actually, not even just acting or art, because I feel like with the things that I've been through in my own life, I feel like I've become really, how would I describe it? Everything seems like a big deal. Every decision feels like a big deal and I'm really afraid of making a decision that's going to put me in a position I don't want to be in or that's going to be a worse position than another option I have. I'm very, I've become very like obsessive using that word again with decision making and perfection and being like I have to make the most perfect decision. I do think that connects to like having had been in dangerous spaces in my life in the past and being like, well, how did I let myself get there? I must have made decisions that allowed myself to get there, right? So it's something I'm like uncovering and unraveling on a deeper level. But when you're playing with that playing, right, play, that's what we're doing in those situations. But it can seem so much higher stakes.

When we're in these moments and we are digging into the connection that we have with a scene with our lives. And so I feel like the more that we can let go and be in positions where we are I don't even know exactly what I'm trying to say. I guess I'll figure it out while I keep talking. But if you're bringing in a scene that is comedy, but actually you're approaching it with the grief lens, it gives you so much more freedom and permission to discover all of the layers of any given moment of time or any given experience that you might have because everything exists all at once. You can be in the deepest depression of your life and still have a moment of silliness or vice versa. You could be happy on your honeymoon or whatever and something happens and it brings you down. It is not just that you come in with a scene and it's comedy and that's it or it's drama and that's it and… Yeah, I don't really know where I'm going with that. Just hit me.

Heidi Marshall

People are, yeah, yeah. It's okay, because I think you don't always know where you're going when you start unpacking things. And this is actually how I love to unpack a scene in a character. Justt, you know, start riffing on it and let it unfold in front of you because it's very layered.

Jessica

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

You're describing the human existence. It is very complex. When I was going through various gatherings with family when my father passed away, we had so many laughs and so much fun too. It was incredible to finally get different parts of my family to actually meet each other to have them be in the same space together and sharing food and celebrating as well. And it was also the most horrific moment in my life. And it can be both. It is both. Not it can be, it is both. It is always both. I was working on the day that my dad passed. I had to go to work. I was on a film set and I had to focus for three days after I got a 430 a .m. phone call saying he passed. And I was on set doing my job and making it happen because I decided that that's what I needed to do.

And I knew my mother was okay and my brother was with her. And they said, do what you need to do and you'll be here in three days. And people didn't even know that that was happening for me. And I'm on set and I'm in a scenario where I'm like, let's focus, let's get this, this is what's going on, you know, in terms of the scene work and the acting and like just putting that in action.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

and underneath it is an incredible rumble. And if I stop for even a moment, I could completely fall apart. But carrying that around, you know, that tension, so it's like right below the surface. Now I'm describing some of the best acting in the world. When it's so complex, it's so layered and it's all right below the surface. It's all right, right there. It doesn't come out until suddenly you give it permission to come out. Maybe I walk to the side or I go to the bathroom and then boom, Heidi crashes. And then maybe that's where if I'm making a movie, that's the scene that would be in the movie. Heidi in the bathroom, crashing emotionally, privately. I'd put that moment in there. And then Heidi puts herself together and goes back out into work mode that might be another interesting scene. And then in that scene, maybe it's somebody's birthday and we're all of sudden singing happy birthday to somebody else. And then boom, now it's an up moment. It's life. It is life. And the complexity of it is, is profound and why we are storytellers because we love to capture those things as well. And.

Jessica

Great.

Heidi Marshall

And that's, you know, art reflects life, life reflects art and back and forth all the time. I'm sure you feel that too when you're having a hard time that sometimes, you know, you need a relief from that. And art can be the relief from it, acting, singing, dancing for people, you know, art making can be a real relief from it. So it's a real celebration as well.

Jessica

Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

So yeah, we're just riffing. We're just going off of each other. And this is how I like to talk about characters all the time.

Jessica

We're just riffing. Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

I will even spend a good amount of time just asking a person about their character before we even start filming because I'm pretty sure that people haven't gone in to the layers enough. You can always go more on your character.

Jessica

Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. How did you and do you navigate the grief with the professional world and the art making that you've been doing? And have you had moments where it's been kind of complicated to navigate where it may be where a boundary could be or should be set? For you, moving into some professional spaces, I, yeah.

Heidi Marshall

Yes, definitely. I would say specifically around the recent emotional layer of grief for me. I have...

been trying to access it more actually and give more attention to it. It's almost a year later and I'm realizing that there's been a lot of functioning going on in my life and in my work but also just within the family and just trying to support my mother, for example, and making her transitions in her lifestyle and where she's going to live and all of that. So there's been a lot of external balancing that's been happening. And then, of course, trying to sustain my work and grow as an artist and reach for the next things that I want to also creatively reach for. I've been navigating film festivals because I have a short film that's out right now doing that circuit and working towards a feature film to direct. And, you know, there's a lot of balancing the professional, the family that has been going on.

And then within that recently I've been having that thought of Heidi, you're not doing enough self care here and Heidi, you need to slow down and Heidi, you need to, you know, all the things I need to do, which is not a good way to approach it either. But I would like to start giving myself some more space just to be quiet and walk around not thinking about work or take those walks and just be present. And it's so much easier as the season is changing, it's getting warmer and I know I'm gonna start gardening again and I'll be up in Vermont more where I also live in New York and Vermont and that is part of my way to be in touch with that other side, actually. The quieter, the child, the girl, Heidi, the little girl, Heidi, who grew up in the mountains in Virginia, and that is what I deeply know. And I need to put myself back into that space often to rejuvenate myself. I also know that I need to start writing. I have to write. I write a lot for actors. I need to start writing for myself now and add that in and carve space for that. And I don't know what that looks like yet. I'm sure that it looks like screenplays, but I need to give myself space for that. So…

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I think the biggest thing I would say that I struggle with is trying to slow down and give myself empty space in my day. That is very hard for me to do. I like to be busy and I will jump on anything because I get excited very quickly about projects and ideas.

Jessica

What's wild and beautiful and so challenging, everything all at once, about being an artist is that even those moments of pause could be connected to your art. Because you're like, oh, this moment I could write into the screenplay or oh, I could use this feeling as an actor or whatever it is. And that kind of can be crazy making and it's also really beautiful. But I've thought about that a lot.

Heidi Marshall

Yeah, it's your outlet. It's your outlet. Art is our outlet. It is where we process a lot. It is our, it's our therapy. Art is how we, we process like think about the world how we put it together whatever your your medium is and so it is definitely tricky because you can feel like you're always working because you're always gravitating towards your art.

But we also all say, aren't we lucky to be artists because we have that out that avenue of a way to self express and process. So it's the blessing and the curse. I guess you can feel like you're writing, you know, into the wee hours and that you must be there for working all hours. Or you can feel like, wow, I'm writing in the wee hours and that's me being in touch with my most deepest self.

Jessica

Thank you.

Jessica

Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

I think it's a spirituality actually. I find that when I'm in a moment of creativity, that is a very spiritual place for me. And I feel lifted and connected on another plane. And it's that creative juice. And there's probably something chemically that's happening that lifts us up. But for me, I...

Jessica

Yeah. Hmm. Right.

Heidi Marshall

identify it as a spirituality. Like walking in nature is a very spiritual experience for me as well. And many people will say I go to church for my connection to a higher presence. For me, I can take a walk in nature and I am right there with a higher presence. So creativity is very similar to me as well. When I start looking at...

Colors, I love colors so much. I love color. I think I should have been a colorist actually. Like someone who's whatever that term is. I don't know. But someone who studies color. I love colors so much. I love every single color. I love combinations of color. And I got to tell you there's something very spiritual in that for me as well. There's I'm looking in the background here at my I have a ceramic lamp.

And it's like, it looks like watercolor actually the way that the glaze, the colors all kind of bleed into each other. I'm like, wow, that is just beautiful. That is beautiful. This turquoise, this mint green, the sage color blending into these blues, these different shades of blues, periwinkle and navy. And it's just so beautiful. I stare at my lamp.

sometimes. It's behind my computer because it makes me think of mountains, the Blue Ridge Mountains where I grew up. It makes me think of water and lakes.

takes me into nature somehow. That is a very spiritual experience to me. It's an imagination starting to percolate perhaps.

Heidi Marshall

Spiritual, I would define, there's a lot of ways to define it actually, of course, but the spirituality that I'm talking about right now is one that is so deep within you when you see something that moves you or lifts you to something higher than just...

the computer in front of me.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

See again, who knows where we're going in this conversation. I have no idea.

Jessica

Yeah, I've always said that the most alive I feel is when I'm in some kind of performance space. And I never connected it to spirituality, but that really resonates with me because it feels like something that's way deeper than, oh, I want to be an actor. It's like, okay, so you want to go and be on a TV show or be in a play or whatever. It's not that. It's really not that. It's just that those opportunities allow you to do this thing that you love. And same thing when I'm writing. I'm like, I think I just said this in the last podcast too. It's not that, it's not that, oh, I want to write a book. It's that, I did say this last time, I have a book in me.

Heidi Marshall

Yes.

Jessica

Like I have a TV show in me. It's part of me. It's something that needs to come out. And it feels crazy to just say, oh, I've never written anything. Oh, I'm just gonna write a book, whatever. No, that is the connection. It's there, it's there. And same thing with the acting. Sometimes when I feel disconnected from it, it's when I get so lost in the industry of it all. And...not feeling capable enough or competent enough or talented enough or whatever it is when really when I watch somebody perform and I feel if I feel really connected to the work they're doing and I'm going oh like this is so deep so visceral so so in my cells and in my blood and my bones it's a need it's more than just like oh I want to go dance on a stage which like if you want to do that too that's great no no shame on that. Just saying it's something that is so much deep, it's spirituality. It's this calling. It's this connection that is as deep as you can get. I never really looked at it in that lens.

Heidi Marshall

Yes. A very significant moment for me in my life, really captures this. I spent so many years as a theater artist. I was studying directing. Theater was my access point. That's how I came into all of this, through theater. I studied directing, I worked in casting, I was working casting theater, I ended up working on Broadway shows, theater, directing. I was theater, theater, theater in my bones. You know, I knew it. I felt it, I lived it, I loved it. I always had this little interest on the side, secretly around film. I just loved movies. I would go sit in movie theaters as a high school student in particular, and I was studying French. And so I would go to the little art house in Charlottesville, Virginia, Vinegar Hill Theater, and I would sit in this little tiny theater and watch all of the foreign films that were coming through and I would try to hit all the French films.

I would actually do this with my dad, another send up to my dad. And we would just go and watch these French films under the guise of I'm studying French. But to me, sitting in that movie theater was going to church. It was a very spiritual moment for me to see these movies that had an aesthetic that was for some unexplainable reason what I was called towards. I was not interested in the big action movies at the local big theater. I wanted these little art house films. They are the ones that were moving me visually, aesthetically and performance wise. So I had that moment and then skip ahead years later after this career in theater when I went and directed my first short film. And this was in LA and it was with the American Film Institute and it was this really unique situation, this grant that I had gotten or this fellowship, I should say. And I was directing on set and there was a big emotional moment where I was in sync with the actor, the camera was on this actor.

I had my headset on and I was sitting like a foot away from the monitor watching this actor on the monitor really closely go through this high stakes moment. And I just instinctually said, I did not call cut. And I said, go again, go again. And I kept doing this. We went probably like 12 times in a row just again and again and again. And I ended up getting this huge range of options from this actor. And what I ultimately understood intuitively was that I wanted something after all of the emotions happened. I wanted a take that was gonna be probably like the 12th take when the actor's a little more exhausted and not controlling it so much.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And this actor and I were in sync and the actor trusted me and did it. And we just kind of kept delivering. And here's the significant moment. As it was happening, again, I had the headset on, I was sitting like a foot away from the monitor. My whole world was in the screen. And I'm watching this movie happening in front of me and I'm realizing, that now I'm making movies. And in that moment, I was also feeling that creative spirit in me because I was trusting myself and I was intuitively reacting to something happening. And my inner voice said aloud to me, Heidi, this is where you're supposed to be.

And I was like, just moved. I'm still moved by it as I describe it now, because that moment just confirmed the higher level of this work. This is it. And this is what I chase after all the time. I chase after that moment when I'm on set and I'm like, this is what I manifested. This is what I always imagined. This is what I love. This is what speaks to me.And then I'm working with actors when I'm coaching people, I can feel it. I can feel that moment when you, the actor, you're like, it's happening. I can feel it. I see it. I know it. Those are very deep connections to what we do. And it is so much more than just about getting a job or being paid to do the work.

that we love to do. God, if only everybody could be, if we all could be all the time. But we can chase those moments and they are on another plane, I think.

And you know it. Yeah, you know it when you're in it. You know it, you feel it. You know it, like when you're performing. I can't tell you, I hear this all the time. Every single time from an actor. I ask, why are you a performer? And they can cite a moment usually. When I was five years old and I was on stage and I was the third squirrel from the left and I had one word to say, I loved it. I felt it, I knew it. I knew it then.

Jessica

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Jessica

It's so true. I remember I had moments like that when I was younger, but something that always sticks with me is that when I was in college and I was in a really bad place, a lot of college, I was backstage for this piece. So we were gonna go on like a 25 minute dance piece that we were about to do. And...

Heidi Marshall

Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica

I said to myself, do not ever forget that this is what you're supposed to be doing. Like it was spiritual. It was so overwhelming. And then I did the performances and then Monday I went back to class and I was miserable again. And I was like, really? That's really worth it for that moment, but I got to keep listening to it. So that's, that's the only, those moments are the reasons that I haven't just walked away. And I've had them throughout. I had them at on Fiddler. I had them when I was younger. There are these moments and then you're like, okay, I can't walk away from this thing because it is me. It's who I am. It's a part. It's more than a part of me. It is me.

And so when you feel disconnected to what you're making or what you're doing or you feel defeated, it's more layered than just, Oh, I'm insecure about this craft, what I'm doing, which is relevant in and of itself. But then you're having this disconnect of, wait, but that's who I am. Why can't I access that? Why can't I give that to myself? How? Why can't I get there anymore? And so having those, yeah, living for holding onto those moments, moments, that's, that's the key to remember, it's not going to be 24 seven.

Heidi Marshall

Mmm. Mmm. Yeah, it can't be. We don't live in bliss 24 -7. And we, well, you know, some days 24 -7. Some weeks are better than others. But if we did, we wouldn't understand bliss. Meaning we can only understand bliss because of pain.

Jessica

You don't? No, I don't.

Heidi Marshall

So we have to be open to all of it happening. So as an artist, we are sometimes in our most glorious creativity self, and at other times we are numbed out, we are not feeling it, we're frustrated, we're angry and then something at some point comes your way. It might be watching a piece of art, watching a great TV series, or it might be seeing a painting on the street that someone's selling. It might be a photograph that you just took on your phone.

And then the reminder's there again. But we have to go in and out of it because that's how we learn and that's how we get more energy around it too. So I think that taking breaks or walking away is incredibly important to do. I live with a writer. He is not happy to be a writer. He says he's doing it all of the time because...He's writing for us to be able to make projects. He's doing, he's sacrificing himself for us, right? Now, the funny thing is, is that my writer husband, he will be up until 3 a .m., 4 a .m. writing. You don't do that because it's an obligation. You do that because you can't put it down. You can't stop.

So what do we kind of keep coming back to? We keep, that's something to look at. And then he will put it down. He'll put down the writing and say, I'm not going to write anymore. I'm just acting now. I'm not a writer. And then he walks away from it ceremoniously sometimes. And then swings back into something else like acting or whatever else is going on. And then go figure…catch him writing again...can't help it, it gets back into it. And I do that with directing. I find something I'm really excited about and I am 150 % in it. And then I'm done maybe because we finish it. And then I'm burnt out and I'm fried. And sometimes, many times in my life, I've had significant moments where I've said, I am not ever going to direct again ever. I'm done with that. It's just too much. It's too much stress. It's too much responsibility. I'm out here on my own making it happen and you know all the victim stuff comes up and I throw down my gauntlet you know I'm not doing this again and then it could be months later that somehow I get inspired by another project or it could be five minutes later. But I just have to go through the action of I'm stepping away from it.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And sometimes it's, again, with my right or husband, sometimes I have to beg him, can you please just take a walk with me? Can I just get you to stop for a moment? Because he might be really frustrated by something and I can't crack this or something gets frustrating. And then because I am the person that's not emotionally caught up in that, I can have outside perspective and invite him and beg. And sometimes force, you need to take a walk.

Jessica

Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

So then we take a walk and then we step away from it and then he can come back and has a new idea. Go figure. We have to do that. We have to walk away. We have to walk away. I think it's healthy to say I'm done. I think it's healthy to do that.

Jessica

Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

And then you back to that calling thing, you know, back to the spirituality of it. Don't worry. It'll come back. I work with so many actors of all ages and I some of my favorite actors to work with are people that are coming back to it. And sometimes have been away for maybe two or three decades. For various reasons. And those are some of my favorite actors because they have new perspective.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And they're maybe more insecure or more confident. Could be either, but they're changed. And now they're going through, what is it like for me to come back into this? I'm feeling insecure because the industry has changed so much, says one actor. And another actor says, I'm feeling more confident because I just raised five kids. And I know how hard that was. Or I've just been caretaking my family member for 10 years. And I survived that, what I thought I would never survive. And then they come back into acting and they're like, I can be on set on a high speed train, TV show. That's nothing compared to.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

all the hospitals that I was in with my family member or, you know, I'm just pulling out random examples. But that perspective is really valuable and can light a fire and also just be healthy and be profoundly insightful. I never have any concern ever when an actor says to me, I'm going to stop acting. I don't, I am never a person that's like, you cannot stop acting. I would never do that. I usually say, go for it. Take the time you need. And if it comes back, it comes ba ck. And if it doesn't? Just discover what is there for you. What else is there? There's something else to be listening to.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

and follow that thread. And again, if it comes back, follow that trail again. It'll be different.

Heidi Marshall

Does this resonate for you, Jessica?

Jessica

Absolutely. I mean, when you live with blinders on and you're just hyper focused on one craft, for example, like I was with dance for a while, my whole life, it prevents you from… understanding everything else that not only are you capable of, but that will feel good and fulfilling and allow you to express in a different way. And that's also partially why I have been so resistant to any kind of like classical acting training at all. I just, I do not want to walk into any space that feels like that again. I feel really resistant to it. I want to be open. I want to see what is possible without that rigidity. And...It also makes me think about how the obstacles that we have and maybe the winding paths that we have can feel like such a burden or like you wasted your time. Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm this many years old and I was dancing for so long and I'm so late to this and I'm behind behind and I don't have this training and I don't know what this is and all that stuff. But honestly,

I stepped onto a film set last year and I just figured it out and they were really lovely. So that was fantastic because not everyone would have been like that. They knew I was not experienced. They still brought me in anyway. They guided me through. I figured things out. I didn't know tons of things that they were asking me or telling me to do and I would just be like, what does that mean? And they would just tell me and I would just do it. So. There's that, and there's also the fact that your life experience, as you're saying, someone walks away for decades maybe, or even a year or a month, whatever it is, all of that life pours into anything that you're doing. And it circles back to there's no right and wrong. That's really what it always comes back to because… Who's to say that the right path and the way to be the best actor possible, for example, is to go and you're doing all the musicals and everything and plays in high school and then you go get your BFA in college and then you're immediately in a grad or whatever it is. That's one person's path. It's not a guarantee for success whatsoever. And as artists with everything, so...

flexible and open -ended, we tend to try to grasp onto anything that feels structured or like there's, oh, there's some path, I see it, like you were saying at the beginning. And that's just not, it's not true. It's not accurate. It's not what's going to be most freeing for you. It's not going to be what will make you the best performer, writer, director, anything like that. And...On a smaller scale, it also makes me think of when you were talking about getting your husband to take a walk. It reminds me that so much of the time when I'm feeling down about myself or I'm in a bad mood and I'm not feeling so hopeful about career or life, whatever. Number one, have I eaten enough food? Number two, am I thirsty? Number three, have I moved my body? Number four, when's the last time I saw a sun? So that's on a smaller scale on a day -to -day basis, checking in with those things, being human. And then on a broader scale, it's the life experience that impacts us.

Heidi Marshall

That is so useful. That is incredibly useful. I love that idea of just a basic check -in on your body and grounding yourself that way because that is a reality that you can't deny. And it's a fact. Have you been outside? Have you seen the sun today or not? That's a fact. When's the last time you ate? Do you need to go to the bathroom? Those are facts. And doing that kind of check -in is a way to take the emotionality off of it. The heat of it all.

Jessica

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I like that. That's very, very useful.

Jessica

I catch myself in that a lot, particularly with the food and everything. I think like this is a total tangent, but what I'm really discovering is I had a history of an eating disorder. And while it's like, it's better now, but there's still residual things that come up. And one of those things is just really not prioritizing food. And so it feels like, it feels like, oh, a waste of time. And I don't, you know, I focused on food so much in my life in the past in such a negative way, like obsessing over it. And now it gets to the point where I'm like, oh, it's, I don't want to have to be thinking about it anymore. And I've really had to work hard to re -stretch that. It goes, it goes hand hand with other health issues. I'm experiencing that too, of course, but that's just one thing. Am I prioritizing food or am I just waking up to do my writing until I get so hungry that I'm collapsed on the floor, like waiting for someone to come pick me up. Literally. So those little check -ins are so important on every level, like not just in terms of functioning as an artist and being able to make your work. Do you have enough nutrients, are you fed, like all these things. And then also of course, as a human in survival.

Heidi Marshall

So easy to make those sacrifices on a daily basis and just give them up, forget about it. It's very, very hard in our American fast moving mentality. Our capitalist society, which is about make money, make money, do better, do better, achieve more, more, more, more. It's a very challenging thing to put self -care in there at all. And that's why that is also now a huge, you know, gazillion dollar business. Wellness, because we have a need for it. It's a pain point for society. So many people are struggling with that.

Jessica

Right.

Heidi Marshall

but it clearly is important to do and as we as we get older as we have more and more health challenges as our our climate changes and the toxins that are out there that we're exposed to really increases out of our control, seemingly…It is going to become more and more and more important that we try to figure out how to not lose ourselves and our sense of...our spiritual needs back to that. What are the spiritual the physical needs?

It's very disconcerting to me when I walk by somebody who has a baby stroller and there's a little kid in there, you know, two, three years old. And I think, oh, they're so cute. And I'll literally lean over sometimes because I love little babies. I think they're just so cute. And I will lean over to look at them and I see that their eyes are glued to an iPad. And I understand why. I understand how this evolved. And I understand the needs of the parent. I respect the needs of the parent. And... Wow, I didn't grow up with an iPad.

Somehow I made it through that as a kid. In fact, I had, I didn't really have anything. I grew up in the mountains in Virginia and my playing was literally, and I have pictures to document it, me making mud pies. I was making mud pies and pretending like I was eating them and having little tea parties with my mud pies. Somehow my imagination created that. I remember we had a little swing set, me and my brother, and we were literally, I grew up in a hollow out in the middle of nowhere, so there were no other kids to play with. And I remember on the swing set, for some reason we devised the idea that we were on a spaceship and the whole goal was to basically not touch the ground. And we would play endlessly like we were on a spaceship. And that was just our imagination filling in the blanks.

It's a very different time now. Even my husband who grew up in New York City and he didn't have mud pie parties like I did. He had, when he talks about growing up in New York, he was out on adventures all the time. Just in his neighborhood, his block, who were the kids that he played with, when they would maybe turn on the...What is it? The fire hydrant. You know, because it was a summertime and it's hot. They would illegally go and somehow unlock it or whatever. In those days you could and then party. I mean, that's a whole, it is a different, it was a different time and is a different time now. And there are things that we have to now put special attention to, to be able to have at all. That we...

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

maybe took for granted before. So back to the self -care part of it or the spiritual part of it, we do have to carve space and make effort towards all of that, I think. And we feel it when we don't. We really feel it. I can tell you my body feels it when I've been sitting on my computer for 12 hour days sometimes. My body feels it. My eyes start changing. My posture is changing. And of course, my mindset is changing. I'm in a whole other world when I'm just on my computer versus when I stand up, I walk away and I cook. I pay attention to vegetables or if I garden or listen to music, for me that's a nice fun retreat. Because I'm not listening as a musician, I'm listening as an audience member.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And it takes me somewhere. I get inspired by it. Yeah.

Jessica

What do you have in your garden?

Heidi Marshall

Hmm. Well, I love flowers. Love, love, love, love flowers to the point of it's very hard for me to cut flowers because I don't like to kill the flower. I love flowers so much. I love the colors. As I said, love colors. And I have been learning how to cut flowers and make

Jessica

Hmm, I get that.

Heidi Marshall

little arrangements, be bold enough to take it out of the garden and put it into a vase. And actually now I'm starting to learn and give the flowers to other people. That's a fun thing to do. So I would say flowers is my main thing and literally anything that anything I'm just trying anything. I will try different seed packets and I will buy flowers that have already been, you know, they're in their pots and I'll plant them and see what survives. That's a lot of it. And I love to try to create. Here's something that would love to do. I try to create an aesthetic in the gardens as well. And one of the things that I read about last summer that sounds really cool to me is a moon garden, which is basically as many white flowered.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

plants as you can find. There's so many. And if you put a bunch of white ones together at night when it's a clear sky and the moon is bright, it glows. So that is interesting to me. So that might be a little upcoming project for me to create a little moon garden and flowers. So lots of flowers. And then I definitely throw in some vegetable plants as well.

Jessica

Wow.

Heidi Marshall

And tomatoes are really easy to grow. So I've been able to do a lot of tomatoes and I'm experimenting with other things like eggplant and peppers and potatoes. I love doing potatoes. Those are so easy to do and they're so fun because they're late in the summer or in the fall and you just go and you dig it up. So you've kind of forgotten about it the whole time and then you go and you realize, oh wow, I still have these potatoes to dig up. So those are really fun to do. I'm going to try some new ones this year. I think I'll try some carrots. I haven't tried carrots. I love eating carrots. So maybe I'll try that. I'm trying things that I like to eat and herbs. Herbs are the big one too. I love herbs and just they're so easy and you just you can sprinkle cilantro everywhere and then your whole garden smells like cilantro.

Jessica

Yes.

Heidi Marshall

and it recedes and it'll spread, but I love cilantro. So that's a really fun one to do too. Yeah, I'll try anything. And I'm not a great gardener. I'm just learning. It's something that I grew up watching my mother do and she's a master gardener. And my grandfather was also a master flower gardener. And so I am learning how to do it. And luckily I've been able to call my mother…

Jessica

There you go. Yeah.

Heidi Marshall

and ask her for advice all the way through it. But I am also learning that there are things that I instinctually know how to do. And I think it was from having watched her do it and not realizing that I absorbed some of that information.

Jessica

So how did you go from growing up in the middle of the mountains, watching the gardening, all of that into the career that you've had? Where is a little bit of that pathway?

Heidi Marshall

Generally speaking, the pathway was Blue Ridge Mountains, Virginia to college, which got me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. That was a big city for sure, even though I was only on the college campus, really, and the area around there.

Jessica

And that was for directing.

Heidi Marshall

And that was studying theater directing in a conservatory program in Pittsburgh. And then I went from there to Louisville, Kentucky for Actors Theater of Louisville. I created a directing internship there for the summer. I mean, for the season. So I was working with some amazing New York City artists while I was in Louisville, Kentucky. And then that ended and that...took me to my next opportunity, which was the Drama League, which is based out of New York City. And they have a directing fellowship, which took me up to New York, to Ithaca, New York, because at that time the fellowship was there for the summer. And then I gave up directing. That was one of my, I'm not directing anymore. I'm tired. I've been directing for four years in school, a year non -stop with the theater company and then this fellowship and Ithaca with the Drama League and I was directing, directing, directing, directing and I was exhausted and I was overwhelmed and now I had to face life because all of these programs had ended and I gave it up. I cried about it.

I stopped and I went home and stayed with my parents who were living in Lancaster, Pennsylvania at the time and I got a temp job at a waste management facility. And I was basically a receptionist there and they had a big explosion while I was working there, literally that I think two men died and then they were under investigation. I was sitting in the middle of all of this as this receptionist and one of the executives asked me to start photocopying documents for him and he was asking me in such a way that I knew that it was secretive. And so I quit that job and I realized I have been caught up in avoiding my destiny. I need to get it together here. And so I decided to move to New York City then and that got me

Jessica

smart.

Heidi Marshall

back on the trajectory of theater, directing, art making, all of that. And I made it into New York City because my friends were here and people had couches for me to stay on and I had temp jobs and then I fell into casting accidentally. And that's when my career, my professional career really took off because I ended up casting on the musical Rent that you probably know about. And...I was doing that for many, many years and then left the casting position because I wanted to get back to my directing and my art. That was my destiny, I felt I needed to really pursue and give myself space for. So getting from the Blue Ridge Mountains to New York City was a series of...

Jessica

The best.

Heidi Marshall

steps that I would say often you feel like things happen to you and maybe you're lucky and an opportunity arises. But I would ultimately say I made all of that happen. I really pursued getting into that college. It wasn't happening. I was waitlisted and then I was going to go to Boston instead. And then I got in last minute and me and my family just sat down and figured out how we were going to make it happen. And we did, and then when I was graduating college, I didn't know what I was gonna do next. And I created an internship for myself at this theater because I was inspired by it. So I made that happen. And I was gonna apply to graduate school for theater. I was gonna follow Anne Bogard over to Columbia University and study directing further.

And I called the office of Columbia University Admissions Program to get the admissions package mailed to me, because at that time it's all in the mail. I called and I was put on hold. And in that moment, I realized I don't want to go to grad school right now. I'm fried. I don't want to do this. And I hung up. And then I pivoted to the drama league and made that happen and applied to that and did everything I could to get into that program. And it's been a series of me taking action despite myself in many ways because I'm not really sure what I want, but I keep taking action towards it. So I try to pay attention to that. Oh, you must want to do that. Which is what I'm going through right now. I'm applying to some things as a director and pursuing some grants and I'm realizing how do you want those opportunities? And that's why you're putting in those hours and that time to do that. But I would

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I'm making things happen. I'm taking steps. The shy part of me says, oh, these were opportunities that came my way and I'm grateful for that. But I actually was making these things happen as well, taking those steps. I do know that when I was growing up in Virginia, outside of my bedroom window, there were trees, of course.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And I would lay there and just stare out into those trees a lot. And I would think about and dream about living in New York City. I was really interested in New York City. I don't know why or where I got that from, but I wanted to have access to that world. It just seemed really exciting to me. And. full of artists and I had images in my head like living in a brownstone with lots of books, bookshelves. I don't know where I got that from and I don't live in a brownstone but bookshelves in a brownstone somewhere that was in my mind. Sidewalks, walking down city sidewalks seemed really exciting to me, of course, the theater and being in the theaters as well. But yeah, I don't know. We manifest things, don't we…despite ourselves sometimes.

Jessica

Yeah. What I'm taking away from that is that there are some things we want and it can feel very overwhelming or stressful to think that you might not get these things or they seem so far away you don't know how you're going to get there. But it's just such a an amazing reminder that that call. You have towards something, some place, some experience. It doesn't have to be this second. I'm saying that to myself. It doesn't have to be right now. You can have that call and know that it's something you want, but we can have the space to breathe into the life that is actually here in front of us. You were there staring at these trees thinking about...the sidewalks and the brownstone and the bookshelves. And, you know, maybe not the brownstone, but the other things happened and it took time, but all of what you experienced were necessary parts of your path and your trajectory. So I think that's a really important, I will remind myself of that because that can be part of what feels stressful in life is thinking, oh, I feel so far from this thing. I keep writing. Something I keep writing about is like, I am here, that opportunity or experience or place, whatever is over there. How do I find the bridge? How do I create the bridge that will get me over there?

And on days where I'm having a better day and I can focus on it, I can like find tangible steps that get me there. And other days it just seems too overwhelming. And I'm like, all right, I'll just stay on this side of the bridge forever. Cause I ain't getting over there. But we can get there. And sometimes it does take time. Sometimes it'll end up looking different than you want. Sometimes you'll start walking across the bridge and realize this is not actually the bridge I want to be walking across sets.

Heidi Marshall

It never looks like what you think it should have looked like. If I look back on my trajectory now for a couple of decades in the business, it is not at all what I thought it would be. My personal life is not what I thought it would be like. I thought I would be married at a certain age. I would have kids by a certain age. None of that fell out the way I thought it would be. And what is so incredible is how it's even better than what I thought.

If I sit in my gratitude space around it, I go, wow, this is not the life partner I thought it would be that I would have. This is not the apartment I imagined I would be in. I definitely never imagined myself back in any rural environment like in southern Vermont, where we also are based. That is not at all what I thought would happen. I thought I'm heading to the city and that's it. I'm in the city for the rest of my life. And maybe I will be full in the city in the rest of my life as well. Who knows? Because it's not done. I'm in the middle of it. But it definitely does not look like what we think it should. It never does. It never does. And if we can let go of that...

Jessica

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

right and wrong idea again if we can let go of this is how my life will be right in the right way if I do things the right things will happen or my life is right if I now live in a brown brownstone then if we can just let go of that then we can be really happy with where we are and what things that we've learned along the way that we never thought we would learn. It's such a different way to approach it. It's not about the end goal. It's about the mysteries of life that way. Ah, the mysteries. Let me embrace that. I don't know what's going to happen later today. I don't know. And good things can happen and terrible things can happen. Either way.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

but I'm not gonna be able to control it, but I could work towards manifesting the things I care about.

Jessica

Right.

Heidi Marshall

and I can still have my dreams and my goals, the things that I'm reaching for, I can still go towards all of that. It's still gonna look different. Maybe you have an image of yourself starring in a film and you have this idea that you're holding to and you're living towards it and you're working towards it that is incredible to have because dreams are wonderful to reach towards and then you find yourself the star of something else maybe it's theater not film and you're like wow maybe this is what i actually was creating and I didn't even realize it.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

or you're the star of your business that you've launched or your book that you've written. And it's fulfilling on a whole other level than you could have ever imagined. The mysteries of it all are really just overwhelming. If we just let them in, they can lift you up and guide you, I think.

Jessica

I don't know why this makes me think of taking your class. So I took your class for the first time over the pandemic. And I had taken a couple of acting classes before, but not a lot. And I mean a couple single classes, nothing intense. And...my favorite moment of a class of yours, and I actually have talked about this on the podcast before, but was when you assigned me for a scene from Terminator 2. Okay, so that ended up being truly one of the most fun moments I've ever had acting, and it was in my apartment and then...which was a self -tape we did and then we did it again in the class on Zoom. And I saw that assignment and I read the scene and I was like, what the literal fuck? This is not me. This is not something I'm capable of. This is not something I'm interested in. This is just everything about it makes no sense. This is wild. Okay. And I'm reading it and I'm studying it and I'm...

and put it into my body, into my mind, everything. And eventually I worked it out in a way where it was so fun, so invigorating. I felt so alive. I was doing jumping jacks and push -ups and weights so that I could be panting by the time I got into the scene. I had to let myself be fully taken over by the experience. I could not hold back at all. That is not a scene you could hold back on at all. I mean, you can, but it's not gonna work. And when I did it, the funny thing is that I was screaming in my apartment, like, he's trying to kill me, he's trying to kill me, all this stuff. So that's hilarious. But. I stepped into your class because I knew it was right. Jasmine Levin had told me about your class. I had been keeping an eye on it. I was off the tour. It was pandemic. I was ready to take it. I had been let in. I was so captivated by everything you were offering us. And then that came about. I would have never in a million years...

chose that scene for myself, ever thought that I could apply for a job doing something like that, ever thought I was capable of something like that. And I listened to the instinct that it was time to get into this class. I knew that was right. And then when I had my assignment, I had to let go of the expectations, let go of what I thought were my limitations and...you presented this opportunity for me to do something that I never thought I could do. I would never even, I would never even had the thought to consider it to know that I didn't think I could do it. Like it just would have never even come up. And it made me feel so capable to walk into that and feel really proud of what I did and feel really fulfilled in the process of doing it. Now other scenes that I thought that would feel way more connected to me were a lot harder for me to access. And that brings its own challenges and things to focus on and work through. But I don't know, all this conversation just about letting...

life and conversations lead to where they go makes me think of that moment because it was so it was one of the most empowering experiences I think I've had in a performance setting and it was a class a virtual class wasn't on a stage wasn't in a college program and I need to hold on to that I need to I need to remember that feeling I need to add that to my toolbox of or my my um treasure chest of these moments that make me feel so alive so connected so spiritually connected to the work and the art that I'm doing and I'm just I'm grateful for your classes for you and for that scene in particular that really changed a lot for me.

Heidi Marshall

I'm very, very thrilled to hear that that scene challenged you beyond what you thought was possible and that you took it on as a personal growth as well. That you saw it as an opportunity to face off and confront a perception that you have about yourself. I believe every act...in every role if the actor commits to it.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

So if you commit, I'm in. I believe that you own it, that you are that. That's usually the missing ingredient for actors.

Jessica

Yeah, because it's so wild that I have not thought about it like this, but. Yeah, there's no right and wrong. Any person can do anything. It is just a choice that the director is making about whether that person is right for this vision in this moment at this given time in this place, whatever it is.

Heidi Marshall

Yeah, definitely.

Jessica

It's just, it's just a choice. It's just like choosing red for a painting or then choosing blue to start off the painting. That's it. That's it.

Heidi Marshall

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. And the director can think, you know, I really need a redhead, not a brunette. And I'm not willing to wig. I'm not willing to do any dye jobs. But I just really, really need that. And you have given the performance of a lifetime in your audition. And they're still thinking, you know what?

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

I just think this actor's terrific. They're probably gonna win all of the awards and whatever their project is that they do next, but I can't put them in this one because it's not in alignment with my vision, my idea, my visceral belief in what I think the story is. And that's that.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

That's that. That's all it is. That's all it is. But if you approach each audition in particular as a chance to learn something about yourself, then you don't take it so personal because you're on your own trajectory. You're learning about yourself. You're finding out about who you are as an artist. I try to sprinkle that in with actors when I'm coaching. I have very little time to coach somebody. It's usually an hour, hour and a half maybe on however many scenes we've got. But I try to sprinkle in an opportunity for them to learn something about their own process or their own artistry along the way so that they can keep upping their own game.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And then it's not just a coaching simply about what's the best way to do this scene. It's about where is your growth spot? Where is that in this scene? I had an actor the other day that I was coaching and there was one particular moment that the character who's really grumpy suddenly has to laugh. And I kept picking on that moment because I knew that what the actor was instinctually going towards was a very let's say a very theatrical response and it was really indicating the turn in the scene. And now I'm suddenly laughing.

Jessica

Hmm.

Heidi Marshall

And I knew that the medium that we were working on, the genre of the piece, that it needed to be a lot more subtle. So that informed me just with my own experience of understanding that genre. But I also knew that this was going to be a big growth moment for this actor because this actor's background is carrying a Broadway stage. And so we kept working on this moment and the actor was really struggling with how to modify that. And then when the actor clicked with it, it was like an aha light bulb went off. Ah, okay. So that's nuance. Yes, exactly actor. That is nuance. Now you've got the nuance. Grumpy character laughs despite him herself.

And that laughter is a surprise to that character as well. They can't help but laugh, but they're surprised at it. That's nuance versus let me just show you. And here's where I laugh because it says in the script, character laughs.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

But it was all tied up in the personal opportunity for that growth and that shift as an artist. That was the biggest win for me in that coaching session. I know we got really great work. I know we filmed some great moments. We got some great submission going on there. That actor can be a contender. There was no question for me on that. But the...That moment was the real win, I think, in that session.

Jessica

Well, I think that's why I and so many people are drawn to you and what you have to offer because you do approach this work and you do approach artistry holistically and you're not coming in and saying it's craft and nothing and it's booking the job and nothing. Those things matter and you value them and you offer tools for us, but you're not denying the fact that we're having a human experience. And I think that a lot of where the industry or training can be really defeating is when you stop feeling like a human being. And so underneath everything that you're doing is the humanity and treating people as whole artists, not...

Heidi Marshall

Yes.

Jessica

just these machines, robots that have to produce.

Heidi Marshall

Yes, very much, very much. I was on set coaching also this week and I was there for, I was hired by one actor and I realized that their scene partners were hungry for and interested in receiving some feedback as well. And when I talked about it with the other actor, is it okay if I'm supporting the other side as well. The actor said, absolutely, because that just feeds back to me. And then I engaged with the other actors, of course, and to the extent that they were interested in. And I started getting a sense of how everyone wanted to grow as an actor on that set.

Jessica

Right.

Heidi Marshall

I was there in support of one actor who was really committed to, can you keep an eye on me and help me be an actor that I know that I can be and you're here to support me for that purpose. And then I realized very quickly that the other actors that were there in support of that actor, because this actor was shooting scenes for real, those actors were also really coming alive when they had something that they were chasing after personally in their work, all of a sudden everybody was growing. And I was just so proud of when I was watching that monitor. I'm like, wow, those are actors who are taking control of their scenes right now. They are, in fact, the main actor that I was there coaching for I'd already prepped with and done some rehearsal with. I...I was more hands off than I think the actor expected me to be. And it was because I was watching that actor take charge and have a mission and like growing and in front of me. That's the best compliment. That must be like being a parent. When you see your child all of a sudden, like making their own decisions in life, you just feel so proud, but they're stepping into their own.

Jessica

Mm. That is such an incredible way to put it because even having you there in a room, you're a safety net. You don't have to be telling them every decision to make. In fact, you're not telling them every decision to make, but they know that they can take risks and make choices. And that if something seems like it's not working or they need support, you're there on the side waiting for them. That's...That's how you need to be a coach and a teacher, a parent, a friend. That really is the root of it.

Heidi Marshall

That is it. You are. Yes, you're backup. You are reflection for them. You're you're there when they are second guessing themselves to to see and reflect back what they've been doing and hold it up and and affirm. Confirm adjust with a strong hand giving them information that they don't have because they're in it and they don't see it. This is, I'm describing what it is to be an acting coach, but also an actor's director. And that is something, that's how I work as a director, where I'm trying to hold up that actor's performance. But yeah, you've got to, you got to set yourself up as an actor if you can, surround yourself with people who can do that. And I'd love that you just included family and friends.

Jessica

Mm -hmm.

Heidi Marshall

because surround yourself with people who are holding that up for you. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love being in that situation with actors. I am not a parent, I did not have kids. And luckily, I get an opportunity to nurture other beings through my coaching and my teaching and directing. That's where I get to implement it. But I learn a lot from watching parents and knowing how my parents reared me and my brother as well. But I definitely learn a lot from how parents have to walk through supporting kids with a strong hand, also stepping back, letting them figure it out, make mistakes on their own ideally to still be there for them when they need support, but also have boundaries with the kids.

Jessica

Yeah. We feel all of that on the receiving end from you, definitely.

Heidi Marshall

I was.

Heidi Marshall

Yeah, that's what I, those are my, my guidelines, I guess.

Jessica

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm going to wrap us up. This was so amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for this and for everything you do. I appreciate you.

Heidi Marshall

Thank you for the time. And thank you for being interested in the whole of it and not just the practicalities of being an artist, being interested in all of the gray areas of it. And that's where it can feel really isolating for people when we don't talk about that. So thank you for bringing this conversation forward. I think it's really useful for people to be able to listen and see themselves and hear themselves in these conversations is very fulfilling.

Jessica

Thank you for saying that.

Jessica

Thank you so much. That's, that is my hope. I just, I know how hard it is to just be a human and then you add being an artist and you add trying to view, do that professionally. All these layers just make it harder and harder. And so it's my simple hope that convert any of these conversations can make it a little bit easier. Make people feel a little bit more seen, whatever it is, just why not try.

Heidi Marshall

Thank you.

Heidi Marshall

Yeah, great. Why not try? I'm going to take that with me forward as I think about what my next artistic endeavors are. Why not try? Yeah, we can. If we don't stop ourselves, right?

Jessica

Yeah, that's the tricky part. That's the tricky part. Yeah. But then you surround yourself by people like we're saying who offer support and encouragement in the truest form. Then it all becomes, it all feels a little bit more possible. We have a little bit more courage to step in that direction.

Heidi Marshall

Yes.

Heidi Marshall

You said it, I'm inspired. I'm going to step forward with that energy because you are absolutely right. I got to take a look at who I'm surrounding myself with. There's already so many incredible people like yourself that are around me in my community. I'm so, so, so lucky. So I just need to lean into it for the next endeavors. I think that's what I'm taking away.

Jessica

Yeah.

That's what I'll take away too. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. We'll talk soon. Bye.

Heidi Marshall

Sounds great.