Telling The Truth with Jenna Ushkowitz

May 31

Show Notes

Jenna Ushkowitz is a SAG and Tony Award Winning Actress & Producer, voice actor and Podcast host. She is known for her role as Tina Cohen-Chang on the Fox TV show Glee and has appeared in Broadway shows such as The King & I, Spring Awakening and Waitress.

In today’s episode, Jenna discusses the beauty and pain that came from Glee, how she learned to separate her worth from her career, and the fear and confidence that comes from pursuing new opportunities.

She also shares how motherhood has reconnected her with her desires, how she learned to effectively and respectfully advocate for herself, and how sharing our stories helps us all feel less alone.

Follow along on Jenna’s journey: ⁠@jennaushkowitz⁠

Transcript

Hello, Miss Jenna.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I love that. I'm here for it. Hello, Jessica. I'm so good. I'm so happy to be here. I'm honored to be here.

Hi, how are you?

I'm so happy that you're here. Oh my gosh, I'm honored to have you here, my dear friend. This is so fun. This is very exciting. I know, we need those excuses because they don't happen as much as I'd like, but you're a busy lady. You're a busy fucking lady.

Jenna Ushkowitz

This is very exciting. Any excuse to catch up?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I'm busy. I'm busy playing mom. I'm a busy person right now. Playing mom to somebody else.

playing mom. Yeah, so can we just, can we please just dive right into that, please? Because what the fuck? Being a mom, can you please tell me about this? How are you?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Let's go. Yes.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Um, I'm good. I really am. I'm good. My daughter is almost two years old this June, so we are, you know, she's like 20 months right now. She's talking and communicating and yesterday we were saying, talking to the Alexa, the Echo, and I say, Echo, play music, and she said, Echo.

It's really wild for to like start responding to you after you've been staring at a blob for a really long time. And I'm really enjoying this phase. I feel like I've gotten a bit of my independence back and like I feel like myself again. So I'm good. I'm just really tired.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Because I'm trying to do it all.

I'm trying to be a mom and then also be a human and be a Jenna and be a working mom again. So it's all a lot, but I'm doing really well.

How have you been navigating trying to balance the mom-ing and the working and everything?

Jenna Ushkowitz

You know, I've been lucky enough that I've been able to sustain myself financially where I don't have to go out of the house so often. So in that respect, I think it'll be a big transition if and when I get a job that like requires a lot more of my time because I can be there for Emma right now and be a really present mom. But I'm getting to that point where I would feel like ready to leave the house again.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I don't think I was there for the first year and a half. It's hard. I have to carve out time for myself when it's dark out in the mornings or when it's dark out at night. Otherwise I feel guilty. Then I'm not spending time with my daughter because it's all so fleeting and fast. Everything flies away. Time flies away. It's a really

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

difficult thing that we're not really supposed to take on the whole load as women, like as mothers that I think in society we have has been created for us that used to be a village when they say like, oh, it takes a village. It was moms and dads and uncles and aunts and cousins and siblings all living under one roof helping raise this child. Now we're in a world where

Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It's two people and maybe some grandparents or maybe a nanny or maybe just you, where you're holding onto everything, the mental load. So it's a lot of pressure and then also add social media and all of these crazy things on where these moms look curated and perfect and they have it all together. And it's just unattainable and it's not real. So it's a lot of noise that...

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I have to try to drown out and know what kind of mom I want to be and if I'm following my rules and my life and what I believe, my core beliefs, and not listening to everything else that I'm supposed to be doing or feeling or surrounding.

Mm-hmm.

How do you drown out that noise?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think it's really listening to my core, knowing who I am, knowing my core beliefs, knowing how I wanna raise her, really taking the time to think about what that is and what that means to me, because otherwise you can so easily just get wrapped up. And realistically, to be a good mom, they really just need a safe place, a safe space, and know that they're loved and they're special. That's really it. And then they can thrive. Otherwise, kids are gonna be who they wanna be.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

You can't, like I can't mold her to be what I want her to be. That's not fair. So I, that's really it for me. Among a bunch of other things that I've created for myself. But yeah, I do have to drown out everything. And like just close my eyes and like listen in to what and remember what I've promised myself to be a mom.

Mm-hmm. Right.

And you've done that to absolutely. And you can drown people out on social media and everything. And then you have to be very intentional about who you're putting into a physical space with your daughter and just with you as an individual. So you're creating a very intentional community around you. And how does it also bleed into what you're doing for work?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Does that answer your question? OK.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Correct. Right. It’s interesting because my trajectory of work, since this is an art and self podcast, like my trajectory of work, I've worked since I was three years old in this industry. I, there have been, it's like a relationship. I have fallen in and out of love with it for so many years.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

and I was falling deeply out of love with it before I had, right when I was pregnant with Emma. When I had her, I was feeling like interested in being inspired again by it and interested in dabbling in it again. And I think one of the main reasons why was because when I had her, I thought, what kind of example do I wanna set for her?

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

What kind of person do I want to be to show? Because that's really it, right? You show by example what she's going to see, she's going to absorb. And so if mommy's not doing something that she loves to do and she's just doing it to do it, that's not the example I want to set. So I really had to like, I mean, there's nothing like having a child, like holding up a mirror than having a child, because they'll tell you exactly the way you are. We're not quite there yet, but I've seen it.

Right. Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

in other ways and how I raise her and how I react to things. But I really thought, wow, I really want her to see me love what I'm doing and how I'm spending my time. And so I started to like decide to like recommit to falling in love with it again, with my work. I forgot what the question was though, or where we were talking about.

I don't remember either, but I really want to hear what do you do to open yourself back up to be re-inspired and reconnected?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. So good question. I really was, it's very hard, right? You have to find the things, you have to remember the things that you loved about it in the first place. I really had to like dig deep. And I also needed like, I need like a corrective experience after Glee. Like I needed an experience that wasn't so intense.

Thank you. Hehehe

Jenna Ushkowitz

And I've got little bites of that since in other mediums, like voiceovers and theater again. And so there was just, I got little bites of that. And I just had to like, kind of have to hold onto that. And I went and saw a show the other night. I saw The Wiz, that's the one that's transferring to Broadway and I was so moved. It was such an inspired piece of work with such talent that honestly, just seeing that, I was like, okay, I'm back.

Things like that remind me of why I do what I do or why I want to do what I used to do. Because I did take a big break from it and just play mom, and I'm happy I did that. I'm happy I committed to that because I didn't wanna be two places at once. A lot of people have to do that, and I had the luxury of not.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And I think I was just making a conscious decision to say like, okay, I think I'm gonna try this for six months, and if I don't like it after the six months, I don't have to do it, I'll just figure something else out. I think like, for me, if I commit for too long, the road looks too heavy and too scary, and then I just quit. And I'm not a quitter, so I think I've learned along the way that little bites here, like little steps, like.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Try a couple of months again, do some auditions. You could try five auditions and if you hate it, you don't have to do it, you know? You just know then. Because when my heart's in something, it's really in something, when it's out, it's really out.

I'm curious. So you started working professionally at such a young age and you did a bunch of stuff like TV and Broadway. And I feel like I had this container of the joy of dance at a very young age and I got to keep it precious without anything professional or career driven touching it for a long time. Like I got to create this foundation of just joy, just ease, just expression. And then, so now when I'm working through all the things that I'm working through now, I can look back on that and remember that as the original joy. How is it different for you having it so interconnected with professional work back then?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm. Right. I think back then...because I was so young, it was just joy. There was competition and there was crazy and there was an element that I have had to unpack as I got older and reprogram. And I can get into that, but I do think the stakes were lower. It was just for fun. So I think in some ways it was similar. Like I was able to

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

just do it for the joy for a certain amount of time and really knew that I loved it and I think that's why I wanted to continue to pursue it because my parents didn't want me to after a certain age, especially going to college. They just asked me not to do it as a profession. They knew how hard it was gonna be for me and but they gave me the bug. Like, how do you...

Hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

How do you ask that of somebody after that? But I really was able to find the joy in it because the stakes were so low. I didn't have to support myself in that time. I think the difference was that I did have to miss a lot of childhood things. I didn't get to join a sports team. I didn't get to do cheerleading like I wanted. I missed a lot of birthdays. I missed holidays with my family.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So I think that was the harder thing. And I think that's actually what started to take the joy out very early for me. I do remember a time in elementary school saying, this isn't fun anymore. I don't want to do it anymore.

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

My parents, they listened and they didn't.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think because they knew if I got out, how much harder it would be to get back in. And I was doing really well, I was really successful at it. Sadly though, it did take joy out of it for me. And it was hard to find it. Again, I was jaded just a lot younger.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

But then it was like a restart as an adult. Like in college, I got to kind of dig in and not audition as much and really be a student. And then I got out and I started working again. And it was like almost like a new beginning for me as an adult, like proving to myself that I could do it as an adult and not just be a child actor that happened to have an agent all the way through. You know, because like everybody in college was like,

Right, right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

You do showcase to get an agent. That's how it used to be. And I don't even know if it is anymore, but that's how it used to be. And so for me, it wasn't about that. It was just about proving to myself more that I could do this as an adult and prove to everybody else that I wasn't just a kid.

Mm-hmm. What was it like to get trained in a college program after you had been working already?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Hm…uhm...

Also Jenna went to Marymount also, a lot of Marymounters on this podcast. No, we did not. So old.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes, and we did not overlap at all because I'm old, but I, um, it was interesting. I had a lot of private training growing up and then a lot of my training just happened on set or on Broadway. So like a lot of that was experience. So college was like a, a really big.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

awakening for me in a way because it was very technical driven. It was very craft heavy versus just kind of feeling and doing and trusting your instincts. And it really did sometimes make me question if my instincts were right or wrong because I had been doing it for so long and then they were telling me that my instincts were wrong. There was a lot of push and pull, and then they didn't want you to work professionally.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

while you were in school. So that was also difficult for me because how do you stop working when you've been working for so long to go and train and I didn't want to do that. So...It was hard.

All to say though, I appreciate any kind of information. It's just about choosing what to take and what works for you. I learned that later, after I left school. I wish I had knew that then, because I really was very hard on myself and I really liked most artists in school. And I felt like a lot of pressure to do what they wanted of me, but also I wasn't listening to myself.

Yeah.

That's what happens and that's what we've been hearing across the board. With going to school and not connecting with yourself anymore, somebody else is telling you what's right and what's wrong and you're losing this sense of intuition. I think what is important to highlight is that there's so much you can gain from really intensive programs and trainings, but you have to be able to

Jenna Ushkowitz

Hmm. That's it. Yeah, I've heard that.

separate what is going to work for you and what is not and what feels right and what doesn't and see them as invitations, not commands about right and wrong. And that's what's really tricky when you're in that position.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And you're so impressionable at that age. You wanna do what they're telling you if you do this, you'll work, right? In some way. So, yeah, it's really hard. And I actually really commend a lot of your guests because a lot of them really seemed to like know who they were at that time, I felt.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And I don't feel like I exactly knew exactly who I was during that time.

Oh, I did not. I did not big time.

Jenna Ushkowitz

you know or like knew what they wanted i guess i knew what i wanted at that time you didn't know who you are so you were being molded.A lot of these schools, and I'm not poo-pooing on them because they generate amazing, talented kids. I think, though, they want to put their stamp on it, right?

Like if they're going to send somebody out into the world, like CCM is going to put their stamp on you, you know? Like, and no offense to them, I know I'm a million friends who went to there and were, are amazing, but...

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's what we were warned about. That's what I was warned about, was like, just be careful of the stamp. Because then you become like, in conveyor belts. And that's not who I wanted to be.

Right. So then you graduated in three years, right?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I graduated in three years. I, you know, actually, Annaleigh Ashford, the very untalented, undriven Annaleigh Ashford was at Marymount the same time. She was just a little bit older and we had the same TA and she did it in three years and I was watching her go through this program that she had basically created for herself and said, get me out.

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

She was also the one that I saw with a suitcase at every EPA call at seven in the morning down on 42nd Street with me. Like we were there and then we'd go to class. And I said, I want her track then. So I said to Rob, I said, give me what she did. And he's like, it's a lot of work. I think I took like 23 to 28 credits a semester. But I wanted, at that point I wanted out.

Yeah

Jenna Ushkowitz

I wanted out. I had a lot of friends that were older who were a year ahead of me. And so I was also like, felt like I was with them versus with my class a lot of the time. So, you know, I would have lost like a lot of my core friends in college if I hadn't done that. And it was really hard. I took like every January session, every extra I did.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

online courses. But it was what I wanted. And that's what matters at that time, I think. Was like, in that sense, I was listening to myself. I did know who I was in that point in time.

Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah, it was a lot. We also didn't have a musical theater major while we were there. So Marymount now, if I understand correctly, has a musical theater major. We didn't have it then. So I was doing theater performance. I have a BA in theater performance and a minor in musical theater. It was intense.

Okay. I don't know what it is now there.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Well, I also, there was daily dance, which now is a requirement for every musical theater student. They go to whatever theater it is over on the West side and they take dance every morning. We were the guinea pigs, so ours wasn't required, but we did it. We all went. It was fun though. I liked that aspect, because it felt like we were actually getting a leg up in taking class in New York City.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

outside of school. It wasn't on our campus. It wasn't our teachers. Like it was, you were really getting the run around of like an experience of that, what it was going to be like when you got out of school.

Yeah, and I had no fucking idea, so everyone else was very prepared in the musical theatre program. But did you like dance?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I did, yeah, I really enjoyed it. Because it was not my main thing, the stakes were lower. And I really enjoyed it. I did, I love dancing, I still do. I'm not very good at it, but I can pick up a routine. I can follow some choreography. Yeah, ish.

Mm-hmm. Jenna, you dance. I remember you're posting those videos. Those hip hop videos. You're taking them? Yeah. And it was great.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh, the pre-pandemic, we would do that. And that was for fun. That was for fun. We'd dance for fun. Started taking tap classes in the pandemic too. That was hard.

Oh, I want to dance with you. I would love to. I know, there's so many reasons I need to come. Mostly it's to finally meet Emma, but.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I know. Come tell that I will dance. That'll be fun. I've... I know. Come see the family. But truly I think that when you dance for fun, like our amazing dance teacher, Brittany Parks, who dances for everybody. I mean everybody. She was in Shuffle Along, she did Beyonce. She's done, I mean a million people, but we just like, she would like do a…

Everything else is bonus. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

routine and you just go dance in a dance studio for nobody except for some videos that we would post online. Like that's freedom. That's freedom. And I wish I did more of that sooner.

Mm-hmm. That's what I need. No. I don't really dance for anything. I don't dance for fun or for work right now, but that's what I definitely need to be getting back into. And that's like a huge, that's a huge topic that keeps coming up in these interviews again and again and again. Just getting back to that. Like...

Jenna Ushkowitz

Do you dance for fun? Right.

and whether it's dance or acting or whatever it is, coming back to the joy of it and remembering why you're doing it and making that something that is not shakeable for yourself and therefore for also the people around you. Because when you say that, that gives me more courage or more validation to then try to seek something out for joy and vice versa. We can build it up and then other people can notice that and take their own actions. What's going to bring them joy?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Maybe we can do that for each other.

I would love that. So what was the end of college for you into like going back into auditioning and then Glee was like a second after? Please, what the fuck? Explain, explain yourself woman.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah, okay. So I graduated college in 2007, and then I was bartending in Midtown for about six months. And then I got an audition for the Spring Awakening National Tour, the first company. And I got all the way to the end. I was being paired. They were pairing the girls. They were pairing the boys.

And then I got a call and said, you didn't get it, but they'd like to keep you for a future Broadway replacement at some point. That means crap. I was like, okay, sure. That's funny. Future Broadway replacement kills me. I don't hate it, because it never happens, but it happened. So I got a call very shortly after that. It was December and I think tour was like September. So December of 2007, I got a call.

Lilli Cooper who plays Marta is in high school and she's at LaGuardia and she has to do one musical in order to graduate. So she has to leave the show for a short period of time. Would you come and audition for us to replace Lily?

So I went in between shows on a Saturday. I read with Remy Zakin, who was playing Taya, who originated Taya. I sang Spring and Summer. They had me do Dark I Know Well, which is March's song, and then they had me do Ilsa as well. And then I got an offer to joined the Broadway cast for a very short period of time to play Marta.

It turned out that Lily's show was like really short lived. But they wanted me to swing. So I had never swung before. And I learned all the tracks except for Venla. And uh, I didn't have a put in. Everybody got the flu. I learned the show in a week and I was up and doing Phoebe Stroll's part as Anna, I think a week and a half in.

Oh my god.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Maybe two weeks. No, put in nothing, just black. I don't remember anything. And then Lily came back and I thought, okay, that was really fun. Like what a fun taste. And they asked me to stay. So I did a year with Spring Awakening. And I played every single one of those parts multiple times. I was very lucky as a swing because there were so many girls that I covered and they were young and they were...

Wow.

Jenna Ushkowitz

busy and so I was able to, I was on stage a lot, which was great. And then very shortly after that, Jim Carnahan who cast Spring Awakening was also casting this pilot for a show called Glee. I auditioned the whole theater, a whole cast of Spring Awakening auditioned. We didn't have to sing for our first audition because they were like, it's the cast of Spring Awakening, I'm pretty sure they can sing. And then it was like,

I'm sure.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

a four month period of time where there were callbacks and I was flown out to LA to meet all the executives and read for Fox and then I booked it. And the only reason I was allowed to leave Spring Awakening to do the pilot for Glee, which never would have been allowed otherwise for any Broadway cast member was because Jim Carnahan cast them both. So they let me out of my contract. And so I did the pilot for Glee. And then the day I got back from...

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

The glee pilot, it was six weeks, I was in LA. I came back to the show, to Spring Awakening. I was like, I'm gonna sit in the back of the theater, I'm gonna refresh my memory… the stage manager came up to me on the stairs five minutes before the show and said, her train is late, she's not gonna make it, you have to go on tonight. So I went on for Marta my first night back, after six weeks of being gone. Awful.

How was that?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I was fine, it's like riding a bike at that point. I played it and I played Marta enough, but I was terrified. I was truly terrified. I was like, what comes next? You just don't think you're gonna go on. Like they wouldn't put you on, but somebody else was on for somebody else. I think it was Erin Merman was on for Venla that night. And so Erin couldn't even go on for Marta if she wanted to.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Very scary, but swinging is an amazing skill. I loved swinging. It was very hard. Swings are underappreciated, I think. And I think they're absolutely amazing. They saved the show. They are incredible. There are people who did split tracks because there were too many people out. It is truly remarkable, but it's very hard. And I think everybody should do it.

Terrifying. Mm hmm. Yes.

Jenna Ushkowitz

at some point. I mean, you know, like as a dance captain, it's like knowing all the tracks and all the nuances and the little things and then like just racking your brain for like what don't not conflating the two roles at once.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Especially if like one thing, you know, you could have the same exact piece of choreography, but one pathway is slightly different. And if you fuck that up, then you end up in the wrong spot. And then that happened to me. Game over. Yeah. What was... Yeah. Was this experience positive overall?

Jenna Ushkowitz

You're like, that's, I feel that in my bones. I feel that. I loved it though.

for Spring Awakening.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Spring Awakening. Yes, I was able to experience both casts. So I was part of the original cast for a while, which was really special, because they were a phenomenon of sorts. Like they were so young, so talented, the music and the show was such a hit. They were like on a billboard in a gap ad in Times Square. Like that doesn't happen to every cast on Broadway, you know? So it was something very special about that. And then...

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

to be able to like witness that chemistry. It was like almost like a glimpse of like what I was gonna get with Glee, like in the cast. And I really tried to be respectful of their whole experience because they, I was coming into their house. But everybody's really wonderful and so talented. And then to be, for them to like completely flip the show on its head and cast all these new

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

young, young kids who had Broadway debuts, most of them across the board. It was really interesting. Cause a lot of the other, the original cast were like more seasoned. Obviously like Leah and John Groff and Skyler and like all these people. So Lauren Pritchard. And so it was hard to watch because a lot of the swings, like a lot of us were like hoping maybe they would just bump us up.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And as a swing, you're either gonna get bumped or you're gonna be too valuable.

Exactly. It's too hard to replace. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And a few of us were told we were too valuable. Yeah, it's a very hard thing to do and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time for the stage manager to put five people in for five new roles. Like it's a lot of work. So anyway, but yeah, generally like it was a really great experience. I loved the show, I loved the music. I loved like our stage managers. It's a young cast, so there's a lot of emotions.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jenna Ushkowitz

running on the regular.

Sure.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I do remember at some point though feeling underappreciated or like I'm ready for the next thing. I'm ready to be a principal. I'm ready to be on stage every night. But I think that's normal. You know, I don't think that was bad. I think that was just a normal feeling given who I am and like being like I can't stay in one place for too long.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, your intuition is telling you what is, what you're desiring next, what's coming next for you. And it was, but your life was about to blow the fuck up and be really different.

Jenna Ushkowitz

coming. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I didn't know. Yeah. It was really crazy. Really, really crazy.

Yeah. What were the feelings when you were being flown to LA and this Glee audition process started? I can't even begin to imagine what that was like.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It was very surreal and it was fancy in one aspect. It was very fancy. They fly you, they put you up. The Glee Test, which for people who don't know, a network test on broadcast television, which is like cable television. They fly you out, you sit in a room with a bunch of suits who are all basically the director and the executive producers have all gone through the whole audition process.

And it's usually whittled down to like one or two or three people for each role. It was two per role for us. Um, and it's just like, they're like, it's this or that at this point. So pick and the network is just sitting there. Very, it's, it's a very sterile environment to go into and very stressful.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

But thankfully it was my first test. So like, I didn't really know what I was walking into. I just like heard about it. But it was fancy, but it also was just like another audition. Like nobody knew what Glee was. Nobody was like, oh, Glee is gonna be a hit. Like, so you're just like, okay, there's an audition. And for me, it was like, I'll just go back to spring awakening. Like I flew out the night after a show on a red eye. I did my audition, I flew back and I went to the show. And so I was like, I'll just go back to...

Oh my gosh.

Jenna Ushkowitz

my show, like it's cool, you know? So in that, in those moments it didn't feel crazy yet, but it felt cool and it felt like...

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

This is what I had been asking for. Like I was moving in the right direction. And I always just need those. Like this business is so hard. Even now, this business is so fucking hard. And some days I hate it and some days I love it. And if I just get like a little win here and there, it keeps me going. So like that was like a win for me, whether I had gotten it or not.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

The people I was with that we tested with, I flew there and back with the people who were testing, the girl that I tested against, for Tina, for Glee. And she was like, it's fine, it's really fine. Of course we would have liked the role, but it's fine. And another kid who was testing against Kevin was like, who's my friend, he's like, I'm gonna go to NYU, it's all good. Like...

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It's good to have that. They were grounded. You know, it was a very grounded, grounding experience. Either way, for all of us.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

What happened when you found out and what was the process like starting up and like moving your whole life to LA?

Jenna Ushkowitz

About 10 minutes after I finished my tests in LA, they called me and told me I got it. And so, yeah, it's really fast at that point. They like know, or they don't, and maybe not for everybody, not for every test. You know, it's like, they have to go watch the tape again or whatever. But for us, it was really fast for most of the characters. And I was like, okay, all right. So.

Oh my God.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I left Swing Awakening for the time being and I was only going for six weeks. So I packed a suitcase for six weeks and they put me up in a furnished apartment. And it was pretty like, at that level, like a broadcast television, like Fox, it's pretty well

Wow.

Jenna Ushkowitz

done, like you are a well-oiled machine. They fly you out, SAG protects you, you're flying first class. I was like, this is so nice. They rent you a car, they put you up. So you don't have to worry about anything, which is good because I didn't have any money. So I had very little on my bank account at that point. And we all, after we started going to rehearsals before the show, because Glee was like a different beast, right? Nobody had ever done this before.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So this isn't a pilot where you show up to set and you get a wardrobe fitting and then you go and you shoot the show. This is like weeks of rehearsal, dance to see if we could move, music rehearsals, warmups. We went through five different versions of Don't Stop Believing before we even got to set. There was a version where they were doing Twyla choreography in Don't Stop Believing. It was strange. And...

Mm-hmm. That's wild!

Jenna Ushkowitz

They didn't have us dance for the audition, so nobody knew if we could move. Really weird. Everybody could sing, you know, and everybody could sing really well, but like, I don't know about moving. That was different. That was really different. No, and so, and that's why like vocal adrenaline does what they do on the show.

And that you can't hide. Like, singing in theory you could cover.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Don't like, we had to lean into the fact that like, we were the misfits who didn't, weren't really that, quote unquote, talented and we couldn't really move. And then it's like, we still persevered, we thrived, you know? Anyway, so that was interesting, but we all had to ask for our Glee pilot checks early. We said like, could we get an advance on our pilot checks? Cause all of us were broke.

Right, right. Mm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So after that, we filmed the pilot, which is pretty amazing, and I can tell you about that. But when we wrapped, I went home, and I obviously went on that night for Marta in Spring Awakening. And then you wait like a month to find out if the show gets picked up or not. So we didn't know if we were gonna do a season or if that was gonna be completely it, and we were just saying goodbye to all of our friends in this really cool experience.

And we got, truly, and that happens a lot. Like you do a pilot and it doesn't go. And so that's it. You're like, wow, that could have been a really great show. That's really sad. We got picked up and then shortly after we moved, I moved to LA and I picked up everything I had and I moved and I rented this apartment that I cried when I got there because it was not what I had thought it was. I booked it online.

Like the craziest summer camp ever.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I through this agent and I moved after that. So it's fine. But it was a very jarring experience to move across the country after I'd been home, sure that Broadway was the life I was gonna live and living in New York near my family for the rest of my life. It was a very scary experience, even with a paycheck and built-in friends and a job. I was still terrified.

When you were finally moving out there, was there any sense at that point that it was gonna be longer than just a one year thing? Like, was there any feel that this might be a long-term situation or not yet?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Well, well aside, well, so when you do a TV show, most contracts are six years. So whether it goes for six years or not, you sign your contract for six years. So I had signed the contract for six years, thinking like, this could go for one, this could go for a half a season, or this could go for six years. So I was like, I was moving pretty indefinitely at that point. Like I was like, okay.

Holy shit. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I'm moving, I'm setting up house here. I think I'm gonna stay, even if this doesn't work out. Cause like, why wouldn't you just try it then? I had my first taste of television and film and I was like, this is exciting. So yeah, we are contracted for six years at that point. And that's also scary. Scarier for people who have been in the business for longer because then you know you're locked in, right? Even if this show sucks, you're stuck.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

versus us who were bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, give us whatever contract you want. Well, I'm signing on the dotted line. Are you crazy? Which was part of the kind of problems that arose later in time for us and created kind of the an animosity towards.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

towards, I don't know who towards, but it created an animosity because we were working so hard and sometimes we weren't feeling like we were getting what we earned. But yeah, so I moved there and we started the show like days later and we were just off to the races. But the cool thing about it was in the first season when we shot all those episodes, nobody had seen it yet. It hadn't aired. So there was no pressure. Nobody had…

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Like there were 10 episodes I think that we shot before anything was on television. And that was really special because we were still pretty, unrecognizable at that point.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

and there wasn't a lot of outside pressure. There weren't all these things and fame wasn't there yet. So that was exciting and special to have, like forever, I always think about that time.

Mm-hmm. A little bubble of bonding and expressing and experiencing together.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah, it was like we were really just doing it for the love of it. Like we loved it. Even the writers and the creators talk about that, like how special that was because no critics were writing about us. Nobody, not even fans at that point were like able to have their input because they did sway a lot of the storylines, a lot of the characters. We like, our writers really listened to them later on. So like we really were in this glee bubble, we call it.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And it was just so much fun. It was, we had so much fun. We still had fun after that, but it's different. It was different.

A special period of time before that bubble inevitably bursts with other people having their opinions come in, but what did it feel like to have that fame hit like a giant fucking wave and how did it impact you emotionally?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm. It was weird. It was really weird. There was like a time where we could walk around and then there was a time immediately we won. We went on a press tour to Australia as the first season was airing and when we came back, it was like a different world. There was like paparazzi at the airports. You couldn't go to the grocery store without people knowing or looking at you.

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Our faces were posted everywhere, all over LA, like every billboard, every commercial. And at first it was really weird, but also exciting. Like we were like, wow, we're doing something really cool and really special. And it wasn't until later that it started to really weigh on like the show and on the work. And

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

mental health was not also a thing that you talked about in the workplace. And so you were supposed to just ignore what was going on in your personal life, which was so life changing and come to work and do your job. And that was really hard because you couldn't ignore it. And for me, like

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think like it really, it was really weird when I'd go home. So LA wasn't my home, New York was my home. So when I would go home and people started treating me differently, family members were coming out of the woodwork, that was weird. That's really weird. I almost was in denial about it. But even my family, my immediate family, like...

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

They're like, this is crazy. Like, they're so supportive, and this is all they've ever wanted for me. They've seen, you know, they put in the time and work too for my career. And like, it's really weird for how big Glee turned out to be. And it really was always about the work for me though.

Like, and after a while, like, I wasn't being utilized in the way that I had hoped because there were so many characters, that it really started to mess with my mind because it's like, yeah, I'm on this huge show and I should be really appreciative. But at the same time, I'm feeling underused and underappreciated at work, which is why all this is happening.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

But all the while, I was trying to be grateful, not trying to rock the boat, trying to be a team player, also still really loving what I was doing. We were such a family and we really, it really was the best experience in my life, you know? Aside from some darker times, it was so formative for me, and during my formative years.

Mm-hmm. How did it affect your relationships moving forward, like during that time period, but also after? Like if you're in the middle of fame hitting, glee hitting, all this stuff, and you notice even this tangible shift within your immediate family and extended family, friendships, all of these things, did it impact how you made friends and community and relationships moving forward?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah. It's funny because like, it didn't, it didn't. Like, we really, the reason why we all were so close and are still so close, like the Glee family and the Glee cast in particular, was because there was only a certain amount, number of people who could actually understand exactly what you were going through. It's like any show that you're on or in.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

and you know like you guys are experiencing it firsthand, right? So we really did cling to each other in that way and we really did get along and we really loved each other even with our like family squabbles internally. And I do feel like during Glee I was very guarded otherwise.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And it's weird because from the outside you see it and you're like, oh, all these celebrities, friends with other celebrities and like all these people kind of like clicking together. Um, but in some aspect it was like the safest place to feel understood and feel like people weren't just friends with you because of your work or who you were at that time.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Um, yeah, I definitely was guarded. I'm trying to think back to that time now. It's such a different time, but, um, it's like such a different person. I feel like I learned a lot. Because I think also during that time, I was also feeling like a lot of my worth was attached to my job and my work. I had grown up that way. That's the only way I knew. My achievements, my accomplishments, my success. And so...

Mmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's, I think, the difference between now and then when I talk about I was such a different person was like, everything was attached to that. I felt like a good day and a bad day, depending on if the work was good, or if people were treating you right at work or not and not like in the humane way, but like giving you storylines or you're doing something really well or like you're getting compliments is very external at that point for me and

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think during that time I had to learn how when I was like kind of closed off because I didn't know how to handle a bad day like that. I feel like I had to unravel all of that at the same time and learn how to be a person just for Jenna and not for Glee, not for Jenna Ushkowitz out in the world, not for her work, not for any of the accomplishments she had, but to really just love myself for me. And so it kind of like went hand in hand in a way because I was such a different person and we were all like, I felt like I was not trusting of myself at the same time because I didn't really know who I was. I don't know if that makes sense, Jess.

Mm-hmm.

It completely does. And you were thrown into this absolutely insane experience. And if we're talking about how hard it is to find yourself and listen to your intuition in a college program, then throw yourself into a giant network TV show with a million moving parts where you're working and you're getting to do what you love. So you feel the pressure of just being grateful, but you also want the storylines and you want the opportunity to be doing what you love to do.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm.

and you have this beautiful, unique, intimate family that you're creating, but that also comes with its own issues and you aren't necessarily given the resources to fully support you emotionally, and then that can spiral too. And then everyone is experiencing that altogether for the first time. That's chaos.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's right. It is chaos actually, that's right. And these showrunners were young and they didn't, this was like their big hit. And so they didn't know how to manage us, you know? There was a lot of people just finding themselves in that time and like going through it together. So it's like all okay. Like I think the biggest thing is like, I've forgiven myself very recently for it.

There's almost times too where I was like so guarded or not feeling worthy because I wasn't being given storylines and then characters would come in, new cast members would come in and I'd be like, was I nice to them? Like, because I didn't even know where I was at that time. You know, like I wasn't stable. And I'm like, was I kind to that person? Because I hope I was. Because that's all that matters. Like if you're nice to work with and you're nice to people and you're

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I wasn't even like true to myself at that point. So I really was like, oh my gosh. And one of our creators was like, you just have to forgive yourself for that because we were all going through chaos. Chaos. I was like, oh my God, I do have to forgive myself. Yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

I listened to that episode of yours. That was from Brad, right? Yeah. And also I will, I also wanted to bring up how in that podcast episode, when Kevin asks him if your personal lives were consciously, intentionally written into the storylines. And he said, yes. And that's another really complicated layer that we've actually addressed here in a different way. Like with Sumi's story about her professor,

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh, they were.

giving her or the TAs giving them like songs to sing to your ex boyfriend in front of them. Like where is that line? So you have that on that scale. But then you have this on a giant job scale and I think it's probably a little bit different now.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Personal right awful. I actually gasped. Yeah

But that is a fine line.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes. Oh yeah, you have to, I'm sure it still plays itself out in other ways in the workplace these days or on set, but we're all taught as artists to really appreciate the job because they come so far, a few and far between, right? You're very lucky to have a job if you have it because most actors aren't working. And that is problematic because

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes, of course we love to do what we do. That's why we're there, hopefully. And I would hope we would all appreciate it, but that doesn't mean that you deserve to be walked all over or treated poorly or don't have the right to stand up for yourself. I was always taught, because I think coming from theater and dancers, like that mentality is very, shut your mouth, show up on time, do your job, and go home and don't complain, right? Don't complain.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And on set, on Glee, there were some people who really knew how to advocate for themselves in a very diplomatic way, which I learned like it's a really good skill to have because I'm not fighting about everything. I'm going to pick my battles wisely. It's like, I'm not going to be the boy who cries wolf, but when I say something, it's going to mean something then. And if I really believe in it, it's something that I have to advocate for myself.

Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So that was something, a huge lesson I learned on the show because you can't be too scared of losing your job because of it. There's a kind and honest way to do it that is sustaining your, preserving your care and happiness, which is crucial. But again, I worked on a show at the time where that wasn't talked about. That wasn't a thing.

Mm-hmm.

And also the people in charge are thinking of one million other things besides your emotional well-being. And so if that comes up, if you don't say something to them, they won't fucking know. And I mean, again, hopefully now it's different. Like we want this to be really built into any environment that we're working in, in an ideal world. I don't know how long that's going to take to actually be the norm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Exactly. How are they supposed to know? Right.

But I have faith. But...

Jenna Ushkowitz

We're moving slowly forward. I hope so, I hope so. It starts at the top, but it also starts with people advocating for themselves. You know, like I learned from other people. I learned from other actors how to do it.

Mm-hmm. How did being in a show like Glee in that intensive world impact your decision to then branch out trying other things like you've produced and you have your podcast and etc?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah. I've always kind of been a woman of many trades. This is where I like, you remind me of me, or I remind myself of you. Like it's very similar in that way where like I jack of all trades. I'm interested in a lot. And so even very early on…

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

during Spring Awakening, like I spent a lot of time backstage. So like I did a lot of writing and you know, a lot of, I watched a lot of material and content. It was like the beginning of where like HBO had these amazing shows, TV shows. And I watched all of Six Feet Under during Spring Awakening. Really getting paid wisely for my time. Really using my time wisely.

Anyway, It was just like trying to find one lane and like focusing myself there and then knowing like I could pursue all of the others later. And Glee really helped me with that because even during the show, I was interested in directing. I've always been like a good leader in high school. I was a leader. And so I felt like I watched all the directors that came in.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

For people who don't know, on a TV show, there's guest directors every week. And so we had all of these guest directors who returned, some of them, most of them, and just watching them, watching them work, because there's a lot of downtime. So why not use my time more wisely than watching TV shows during spring. But yeah, I kind of knew there's other skills. And I also think there was...

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

a sense of like, I think being in the business for so long, I had watched so many people come and go and I don't know why, but I had this sense that like, this isn't gonna sustain me forever. Like at some point I'm gonna age out. And I know that's weird to say, but like for me personally, I felt like, what am I gonna do when I get older? Like a lot of dancers, like are dancers thinking about that? Like there's a lot of people who are and a lot of people who aren't.

Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And it's a really hard business. And then at some point you're like, what else do I do with my life? How do I sustain and take care of my family? And so, yeah, I think during Glee, I was definitely like a sponge, trying to like absorb as much information, how a set works, what kind of skills I had and skill set I had and what roles like kind of fit that.

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And then after Glee, yeah, I think during the show also, it was like all these opportunities arose and we were at the height of our fame and success. And like, we had the opportunity to sign book deals and record deals and go do Broadway shows if we had never done that before. And so I felt like I had to like strike while the iron was hot. And I'm glad I did on most things.

And then going back and like producing Broadway in like 2015, that was after I had done Waitress, after Glee, which was really fun. And I don't know, I liked, I always liked the idea. Producing, I just didn't know what it was. And so this opportunity presented itself to co-produce on Once on This Island Revival with Alex Newell and Haley Kilgore and all these amazing people. And I thought like, wow.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

let me just dive in. You know, why not? And Hunter Arnold, who was like the lead producer on a million Broadway shows and is wildly successful, took us under his wing and really like mentored us and taught us and showed us how all of this works. And we would have like night sessions where he'd take like five to seven, we'd sit down and have all our questions and he would kind of show us how to, how each facet of like co-producing and lead producing work. So that was all thanks to him, but I think…

After Glee, it was like the opportunity to do all the things that I ever, I always wanted to try but didn't have the outlet to do it. And I always thought like, I always lived by like the idea that like.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

you have to do things that scare you. Even if you, like everything I love directing, I had to try, you know? It was the scariest thing. It's so scary, but all of these things are like, oh, I can do that now, I've done it. Do I wanna do it again? I don't know, it's still scary. I mean, being on a TV show again is scary to me. So it's all scary, but yeah, I think.

Yeah.Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think it was like thinking about all the skills I had and how I could utilize them and then just like taking opportunities when they came.

Mm hmm. I want to get back to the being on a TV show again is scary. Because for me, and I'm sure for other people, kind of feels like once you hit a certain point, or you do a certain thing, then you have the confidence to go and do it again or whatever it is. But

Jenna Ushkowitz

Ha ha

It makes me feel validated that I'm still so afraid to go back and perform again or whatever it is. Because just because you do something doesn't mean you have to, doesn't mean you're not going to be scared of it anymore. That doesn't mean the fear is just gone. And actually, if you care about it, the longer you're away from it, the more scared you might become because of how high the stakes feel. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes, it becomes more and more unknown. Exactly. The higher the stakes, the more unknown it feels, the farther away from you it feels. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to that. I think when you said like, oh, confidence, you know, having the confidence to go back and do it, I have the confidence, I just have to find it. Does that make sense? Like, I know I have the confidence to do all these things. I just, it's not my...

Mmm... yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

default ever. I may come off confident, but that's not my default. I'm very sensitive and wildly insecure in some ways, especially in my craft. And so I have to just dig deep and find it because I know it's there. And yeah, I think I'm glad because I think we have to be honest about our feelings and where we're at.

I think being on a TV show would be so fun and feel like being at home again. I am sure I would find that feeling, but that's not the initial feeling that I feel, ever. So I think knowing that and learning that about yourself, you're like, okay, that's not my default. And also surrounding yourself with people who get that. My manager gets that. I'm a crazy person with self-tapes. I'm a crazy person with all of this, but he knows, and he's just like...

Right. Mm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Okay, like this could be really fun. If you don't wanna do it, that's okay. And like that's all he has to say. And I'm like, no, but I do wanna do it. You know, like there's just enough, like I feel surrounded and supported in a way that's like, even if it is scary for me, I have other people who do believe in me and are confident around me. And that's huge too.

Right, right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

But I'm... Yeah, I'm scared of everything. Hehe

Well, it also, right. It's almost like, does your desire outweigh the fear on one level, but then on another level, like I know when my mental health is really horrible, I can't even begin to think of anything that I dream of as a possibility whatsoever. So sure, let your desire be very strong, try to have it overweigh your fear, great. But also if you are down on yourself or you

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes, right. Mm-hmm.

whatever your mental state is, you can't just be like, okay, well, I'm gonna be, I desire this more than I fear it. So that's that. Like there's also that component.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It's impossible. It's impossible, right? That feels impossible.

Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It's like navigating. It's so hard because our ourselves and our art are so interconnected. Like some people can leave their work at the door, but like for me, I think about like, when I'm acting, like I have to get better at this too. When I'm on set, I always leave doubting myself. I always leave the set doubting myself.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Did I do enough? Did I do it the way I wanted it? Did I prepare enough? Did I deliver? Are they happy? And I have to like find tools to find a way to like just find the joy in like what I did that day and appreciate how I felt because otherwise this is not a good industry for me, for my mental health.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And that's like the thing we were just talking about. It's like… finding the balance, I guess, of knowing what will stretch you and where growth happens, and knowing when to say no also. Because our industry, it's very hard for people to say no.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not a parent like you are, but something I come back to a lot is I felt like in school I was so fucking hard on myself. I was so intense, like grind, grind. And then when I left that, I felt like I needed to heal. I did the complete opposite where I was like, you can do anything. You cannot do anything. Anything goes. But for me, like right now, I'm trying to find that happy medium of understanding the healthy way to push in a way that will help me

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm.

feel more in the world of desire than in fear, but in a way that still feels safe. And yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

comfortable, right, safe.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It's a hard balance to find. No. You can't. I mean, if you do, you just need tools to figure out how to handle it.

Cause you're right, also you don't want to take that home.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

or how to get yourself out of it. Like, do I allow myself five minutes to do that and then let it go? Yeah, probably. I probably need to feel it, you know what I mean? And then just move on.

Yeah.

And it's also okay to feel fear. Like it's okay to, you don't need to walk into something 1000% confident all the time. It's just a matter of can I, how can I approach this with kindness and love towards myself.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes, that's right, because this at the end of the day.

You're another day older.

Jenna Ushkowitz

You are another day older and life is so fucking short. Like you just have to love it and have fun with it. You know, like you have to laugh at yourself sometimes. Like I used to like keep myself up at night over a bad audition or, you know, and it's like, I don't know if it's having a kid. I don't know if it's age or maturity, but like it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Mm-hmm.How did you start to let that go, you think?

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think the thing is like I have to remember what does matter. Like I'm pursuing, I'm being true to myself in that moment. I'm pursuing what I want to do. I'm doing it because I want to do it. I've put myself in that position because I put myself there. Not because I forced myself there. Mistakes are okay. Like, that's okay.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

We laugh about it. It's not the end of your career. You're not a bad person. You shouldn't love yourself less because of it. So I think like actually putting into perspective what I can control out of it, what I have chosen to do, helps me a little bit. Because what's the point otherwise? Like, why are we worrying so much? I don't know. Is that into your question?

Mm hmm. Yeah. And where do you feel you live now with that conversation we had about worth and your worth being so tied into your jobs and your career?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Very separate. Very separate. I feel like I have really worked hard um a lot of therapy to reprogram myself in ways and know that if I'm not working that doesn't mean anything… that doesn't mean anything bad about myself and that I'm still very worthy. And I've learned how to love myself no matter what. Not despite, not because, just love myself. And...

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah, I think it's important to know that each thing that we do is like a part of us, but not doesn't make us who we are. So I think yeah, I just like, it took a lot of work and reprogramming. That's really all it was, was like, and I also think it took like, not working for a really long time. Partially because I chose not to work and also because like, nobody would give me the opportunity to work.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

or to do the thing I want to do. And so it's a little bit of both like, that gave me some perspective on like, this isn't going to be forever. Whether it's forever or not, I can't sustain that way. I can't sustain that way. So yeah, I think I'm in a really good place with it now.

And when I go into my next job, I think I'm hoping that I learned from that. Like this is an extension and this is because I love it. And this is because I...I want the opportunity to show, to offer people something different and new versus like, if this show flops and I don't do a good job, I fail. You know, I can only control the work I've put in.

And I think it's also important to highlight that just because someone is not on a contract or not actively working in a way that we see you on stage or we're watching you on the TV screen right now, there's so much work that is being done behind the scenes and that's sometimes really hard. Like if you're not getting actively paid to do something, it feels like you're not working and that also messes with your head with

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm.

with worth too and how you see yourself. But for me and for you and for so many people, I know there's so much going on. Some things that we tried and didn't work or some things that we're actively working on or being a mom or being a partner or being a family member, friend, all of those other things that have nothing to do with work itself.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yes.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. Yeah, it's I think, as artists, we have to invest in ourselves because we are our instrument, we are our brand, we are everything, whatever you want to call it these days. Brand is so funny to me, but we are our own brand, right. And investing in ourselves in our self care in our mental health in our work to have tools to

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

be more successful the next time we are contractually working. I think it's all leading towards your next thing, whatever that is. Yeah, on the day-to-day basis, it's like, how do I take care of myself, to take care of my family, to do the best job I can at work, or whatever I'm doing to thrive, and to also be happy doing what I'm doing, and be fulfilled doing what I'm doing.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Sometimes, like, sometimes it's just a job, and that's okay, too.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

but it's all leading towards the next thing that you go. The job that or the work that you're like, oh, this all led me here. Investing in yourself is key.

What was it like returning to Broadway after you had done Glee?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Wooee! It was hard and easy in different ways. I loved Waitress. There was much more pressure in, I felt that I put on myself to deliver. I felt like they were hoping that I would help ticket sales. I think they were hoping that I would deliver talent wise. Like there was just a lot of pressure that I felt and I put on myself.

Really, I created it. None of that has been confirmed. Do you know what I mean? But I had such a fun time going back to the stage and going back to Broadway. Glee was like, sometimes it felt fake a little bit. Like we were fake singing and dancing on the stage.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So to have to actually do it eight nights a week or eight times a week, again, was really a wake up call. Cause Glee was like crazy in its own way and the hours were wild, but Broadway is very hard. And everybody is amazing on Broadway. But I had such a fun time. I really did. I missed like the, I missed the audience, the live audience.

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

aspect a lot and so that was really fulfilling for me. I loved the cast, everybody was so nice and

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I wasn't like the main lead, which also took a little bit of pressure off because God bless Jessie Mueller for the angel she is and the amazing job she does. But that whole cast like lifted, was there to just lift her up, I felt like, and everybody was so supportive of each other. So it was a really great experience back. But yeah, I felt like a ton of pressure to show up and deliver every night. And I really did try. And sometimes I like tried too hard.

Right. Hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

if that makes sense. Like sometimes I like, I look back and I'm like, why did I try so hard? You just have to be, and like that's enough. But it was a pretty wild experience because kameeko was going through some stuff and so she left the show for a short amount of time. And again, it was like Lily Cooper, somehow I'm thrust into shows like that. And I thrive like that, so it's fine. But I learned that show in eight days. And...

Mm-hmm. Oh my god.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That was really crazy, because it's a crazy, very prop heavy show. Fork here, coffee here, pour here, cup here, menu there. It's really a challenge, a brain challenge, but I had the best time. It made me hungry for theater again. I was like, oh, I could do this again. So I'm definitely interested in doing theater again at some point. have to be the right thing, but I would, yeah. There's just nothing like it. There's nothing like it. Like anything could happen.

Mm-hmm. That is the fun of it. Like, I think...

Jenna Ushkowitz

And like, that's it. Like it's done and it's not recorded. Like it just lives in your memory. And I love that. Whatever happened that night?

Mm-hmm. And also you and I are both such control freaks in so many ways and so like organized and maybe a little compulsive or like that kind of vibe. And so I just laugh at the thought of us both swinging also and just loving theater too. Cause I would be like, oh, that person's out and this person's out and that, oh, look that thing's fucking up. Okay, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's right. Mm-hmm.

Okay, I think there's something so satisfying and fulfilling about knowing that these things are all going wrong, but that there's nothing you can do to fix those things. You can just insert yourself in the way that is going to best serve the production and support the people around you and everything, but like that thing's not my fault, that thing's not my fault, I can't change that and now it's game time.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm. It's so true and you just leave it there. Like it's kind of like, I think like athletes might feel like, and I don't know, win-lose is a different vibe for me. It's not my thing, but I imagine you just leave it all out there for you've left every drop of sweat you have left on that stage and that's it. And like,

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

You can't control it. It's kind of fun that you can't control it. You're like, well, out of my control. So keep going. And then nobody, it's just not left in infamy forever on a screen where you can go back and pause it and see that face that you made. You know?

Right. Yeah, what is that like seeing Glee back?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh, God. Well, there's the aspect of it that I'm watching. I'm watching it three different ways right now, currently, while doing the podcast. And it's like, I'm watching it as a fan for the first time, and really being able to remove myself from it, and being like, God, they were so talented. At the time, you're like, why didn't I have a solo at that? Or why didn't I sing on that song? So it was very hard to detach from. I'm so detached at this point in that way.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

that I can view it and go like, God, that was such a good number and not attach any of those bad feelings to it. I'm also watching it emotionally in a different place, but I'm also now watching it back going like, oh God, that's where we were at that point in time. That was a lot. That's when the rails started to come off. That's when we were starting to go crazy. Like this, I was...

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

devastated in this scene, you know, in my personal life. So there's also watching it and going like as an actor, being like, oh, she wasn't, I wasn't there mentally. Or wow, that was a really important scene for me. Or I worked really hard on that. Oh, I'm really proud of that work. So I think there's like all those ways of rewatching the show and they're all are very different and also very beneficial for me at this point.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I'm removed enough, but I still am feeling enough. I'm still attached to it in a good way.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Sometimes though, it's hard to watch. Watch back.

Well, you had these high highs and devastating lows and losses. And so to be coming back and seeing that all on screen, like you're saying, all of these fucking layers as actor, as character, as like person who is in it, as person who has had to work through things, as person who's watching it now, like, that is so much to take in. And you're doing it all the time for your podcast.

Jenna Ushkowitz

It is a lot. We are, look, I feel like the podcast has given me an outlet because Ryan did it and Ryan has given his blessing for it and has been so gracious towards us that really opened the door for us to be really honest and open about it. And I think when guests come on, they are so honest and open. And we haven't been able to do that before. So it's really big for a lot of people, very healing.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And it's a lot. It was a lot to process and a lot. There was no time to process any of it. We were just working and it's just something much bigger than us. And so. At the end of the day, it really wasn't about us in that moment, but there were a lot of feelings. So, again, it's like, if you don't process those now, I don't know. People are still holding on to that, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

So I'm feeling very lucky that we have this outlet for people to come on and actually really tell their stories and share their feelings. Because it was so, we really were, it was the highest of highs and lowest of lows. And I don't feel like every other, even every TV phenomenon had that. It's so weird. Like Breaking Bad, I don't, I'm sure they had their things, but like.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I don't know, you just don't see them always in the news and I don't know why that was. I don't know.

Right. Well, you were so young when you started, and there's something that we really value about young people. So it's very exciting. There's a bunch of young people. People are dating. People are this and that. And you had a tragic death in the midst of all of this. Yeah. And people take

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm hmm. Right. Mm. Right. Mm-hmm. And smack in the middle of the height of the show. Right.

People handle that in beautiful and respectful ways, and they take that and they use it in negative ways. And then as the years have gone on, there's been more. And it's just a reminder of why it's so important to remember that everybody is a human being and that there's so much that goes on behind the scenes and that you never know what somebody is going through.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

and you need to treat everybody, everybody with kindness and respect. Well, at least most people who deserve.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. I think, I think that's right. I think with like the losses of the show, it again goes, plays into that idea of like, it just being bigger than us. Like we're all human. This is a show and these are people's lives that you're fucking with. So the media is gonna do what they're gonna do, right? And

A phenomenon is a phenomenon. It's just what it is. Like, it's part of it. But the losses and the way that it's handled and the headlines and the clickbait and all of that, it's just, it's hard and it's a lot to see all the time. But at the end of the day, we're a family. And I think that's why people are having...

this reckoning with the show, at least the people inside of it, I feel like are processing now because it's not one death, it's not two deaths, it's not three deaths, it's like, you know, you get those and then you have all of our crew members that we've lost and like all these people, amazing people. And so it really just puts things into perspective. We have a TV show that changed lives and saved lives. And then you also have a family within that.

that was deeply hurt and deeply damaged because of all of these losses. And people are still healing from that. And some of them were even like only, you know, Cory died in the middle of the show. That was so hard to keep doing it. Because every day you're just reminded that, you know, you lost your, the heart of the show.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And then, you know, you lose people afterwards and it just brings you all back together. And you're like, why didn't I call you? Or why are we seeing each other when somebody died? So we really try to like see each other more now on the regular and stay in touch and celebrate. We do celebrate the good things, you know, as well, but.

Right. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Yeah, it was a very… tumultuous time amongst a very high time.

And also when you're not only having these storylines written about your personal life, but everything you're getting paparazzi and people like know who you are and you're dealing with this absolute heartbreak, both as a friend, human being and also in the workplace. Did you have like resources and support around that time? Was there like a little pause or anything like that?

Jenna Ushkowitz

When Cory died, we had two weeks off after he died. They gave us two weeks. And then we really had to go back to shoot.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Part of it was like, we didn't wanna be away from each other. So there was like somewhat of a gift of like going back to work and being with each other. But part of it was like really hard and really weird. And you're like, where do we go from here? Like creatively, where do we go from here? And then also like, where do we go from here? And so we were offered, like I said, like there was no mental health talk in the workspace. And so it would have been a very different.

Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Time I mean, I don't think we would have done the show anymore after he died To be completely honest at this point, but like I think back then we were offered a grief counselor if we wanted to but Like nobody wanted that like so I don't know if anybody used it or not, but I didn't and I Don't know it's hard it's like I feel like we're talking ugly and it's all like bad, but it's it wasn't um It was just

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jenna Ushkowitz

crazy. It was like the best, most joyful time.

Mm-hmm.

Jenna Ushkowitz

But with each moment that was hard or tough or challenging or tragic, there was so much perspective and love that came with it. Even sometimes our cast members, because we were so many of us and we were all so close, we'd all, one person would drift off and the other person would drift off. We wouldn't talk for a while, we'd just come to work and we'd do our thing, or somebody's doing a movie, you know, all these things, but then like when something like that happens, you just like, it's like a magnet that brought us back together. And so there was like all of this good that came from it too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenna Ushkowitz

And it gave us so many opportunities and it made people who they were in a lot of ways. Even as a, like not just in our careers, like I'm shaped by that experience. I'm shaped by Cory, I'm shaped by Naya, I'm shaped by all of it. So. It's a huge part of my life. One of the biggest parts of my life. You know, I don't know that I'll ever escape it. Ha ha ha.

And I think there's a huge difference between like calling something out as negative and just being honest about an experience and what it's taken to process it and what it was really like to be in it. And I think that a huge part of what I wanted to do with this podcast is just to be honest and look at people's stories and say, look at

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. Mm-hmm.

this whole spectrum of color. Look at all of this rollercoaster of emotion experiences that we've had so that we don't just look at people from afar and say, I'm never going to get where they are. I'm never gonna be able to do what they're doing. I'm not capable of it. I have these hardships, whatever it is. And really just saying, look, we all have these things that we've experienced, something that seems so horrible.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. Experience.

is actually has so much beauty and joy to it potentially. And same thing, something that seems so perfect has all of this darkness and shadows, but all of it's okay and valid. And I think it helps us as listeners of the storytellers on this podcast and your podcast and everywhere to say, okay, let me just settle in with my own reality a little bit. Let me just accept.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. Mm-hmm.

all of these complicated layers and feelings that I've had with all of my life experiences. And let's start from there.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right? That's amazing. I mean, everybody's an artist in their own right. And I… Yeah, I think the more we share our journeys, our vulnerabilities, our truths, the less alone we feel. There's so much good that can come out of so much darkness. Um, but I think it's all just truth. Like if you tell your truth…people know that they're not, whatever their challenges are, whatever they're dealing with is not, they're not alone. Especially in our industry, it's a very hard industry on our person, on our creative sides. And...Like it's all okay, you know?

That's what we do with our podcasts. It's like, it's a very isolated experience that we had. It's very big. And a lot of what the media did was they did their job. They took what they had to and, you know, but a lot of it is focused on the darkness. And so we just really wanna focus on our truths, which was it was really joyful. And we knew what we were doing was bigger than us. You know, and I think that's important. Like we all do this for.

Mm-hmm

Jenna Ushkowitz

something bigger than us. But it's also important to take care of yourself. You know?

How do you take care of yourself?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh boy, it's funny, I was thinking about this, like, I work out every day for my mental health and for my physical health. And I do it because I want to be able to, um, you know, in my old age, be able to get up in the morning and feel good. That's really why I do it. And I, I try to like do something for myself, like once a week, like go get my nails done or just like, and I know it's, that's not really self.

That's not like a luxury, but right now it feels like it. But being a mom fills my cup right now. So I'm really leaning into that. And I ask for help and I ask for time if I need it. So that's kind of what I do to take care of myself.

And my last question, Jenna, what is your human bio?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh my god. Well I was adopted from South Korea when I was three months old. So that's a big part of my story. And I have found ways as an adult to pay that forward. I work with a lot of adoption organizations and I try to use my platform for good. I'm a social justice warrior. I believe in equity for all. And I'm a mom and a wife and a friend and a daughter and a sister. And...

Yeah, I'm a lover of animals and a lover of myself and a lover of my village and my people.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's it.

Sounds about right. Okay, I lied, I do have one final question. What makes your soul sing?

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh my gosh. That's really hard. Why is that so hard to answer?

I know, because it's not at the tip of our tongues. It's not what we live in.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That's right.

And it's very different than what do you want? What do you desire? Right? It's like asking something that's a little more sparkly, a little more spiritual.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Right. Hmm the first thing that came to my mind actually was giving back..I think like paying it forward, inspiring to then be inspired. It feels very generic. I know, I'm sorry.

It's honest.

Jenna Ushkowitz

I think it's like when people can see, when people can put themselves in other people's shoes. When people are able to really look back and like step back and look at how the rest of the world or other people see the world, to me, that's what's going to create a better world. And so that's what makes my soul sing.

Beautiful. That's it.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Oh my god, that's it? Did I make any sense at all?

That's it. He made a hundred percent cents, a hundred percents. And neither of us burped. All podcast.

Jenna Ushkowitz

That made sense too.I know I tried not to drink too much.

Well Jenna, I love you so much. I didn't even get in at all about what an incredible friend you have been to me. Like life-changing friend, just endless love and support. And I'm just so grateful for everything you've done for me and for all of who you are. And...

Jenna Ushkowitz

So nice. I love you.

That's it. I love you. Thank you.

Jenna Ushkowitz

You've been a great friend to me. Thanks for always bothering me to catch up. Sometimes it's hard to get myself on the phone, but I love it. And I love who you are and what you're doing for the world. And yeah, that's it. I love you. Thank you for having me.

I love you, thank you. Okay, bye.

Jenna Ushkowitz

Bye!

Jessica Altchiler

Telling The Truth with Jenna Ushkowitz

Show Notes

Transcript

The Spark of The Story Project

Harnessing Your Intuition with Lisann Valentin