Sobriety as an Artist with Thomas Hodges
Show Notes
Thomas Hodges is an award-winning composer and educator who was most recently the Developmental Music Consultant for Life Jacket Theatre’s The Gorgeous Nothings. His commissions include The Harvey Milk Foundation, Diversionary Theatre, and Borough of Manhattan Community College and he’s performed at notable venues including The Kennedy Center, California Center for the Arts, and 54 Below.
In today’s conversation, Thomas Hodges bravely shares his journey through the past six months of sobriety. He shares the impact it has had on his creative process, how we can become curious about toxic cycles and what no longer serves us, and what challenges have arose thus far.
Thomas and Jessica discuss the power of creating art from the feelings you are currently struggling with, the ability for artists to create meaningful connections and impact other people’s lives through their work, and one surefire way to get yourself to write a cabaret.
Follow along on Thomas’ journey: @thomashodgesmusic
Transcript
Jessica Altchiler
Hello and welcome to this story project. Today's guest is Thomas Hodges, a composer and educator based in New York City, Thomas received the 2018 arch and Bruce Brown Foundation grant and the ANA Sanko assists grant for his musical Sonata 1962, which won the 2018 New York musical Festival Award for Outstanding musical arrangements and orchestrations, and is a semifinalist for the Eugene O'Neill Center. His musical underground was part of the 2019 New York musical festival reading series. And he was most recently the developmental music consultant for life jacket theaters, the gorgeous nothings. Thomas's score for dear Harvey has had 50 international productions. Three language translations earned him a commendation from the city of San Diego, and an award from the Kennedy Center American college Theatre Festival. His Commission's include the Harvey Milk Foundation, diversionary theater and borough of Manhattan community college. In addition to performing his album release time travelers at Joe's Pub, he's performed across the country and notable venues including the Kennedy Center, California Center for the Arts and 54 below. In today's conversation, Thomas bravely shares his journey throughout the past six months of sobriety, the impact it has had on his creative process and the ability for artists to create meaningful connections and impact other people's lives through their work. Without further ado, here's Thomas Hodges.
Okay, so I am here with one of my dearest dearest dearest dearest dearest friends, Thomas Hodges, the one and only Hi, Thomas. Hi. So happy to be talking with you, like, always, but especially on this platform. I think it'll be really interesting. I just said, you know, you tell your stories through songs and the musicals you write, and it'll be interesting to just hear Thomas talk about Thomas through the lens of Thomas. The conversation.
Thomas Hodges
Yes, without the piano translating. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
Which you do so beautifully, and so well, and it's impacted me so much. But like, let's talk to Thomas, you know,
Thomas Hodges
absolutely, yes. Oh, I'm so giggly.
Jessica Altchiler
I think that's why it's like, it's every person I have on here, there's some obstacle, and there's some thing that makes it a lot easier. So I think when it's someone who's a really good friend of mine, the easy thing is I don't have to prepare anything, right? Like I just we're here together, I am in conversation with you, I kind of have a sense of what I might ask you, but also not really. I just know it's gonna flow and everything. But then the flip of that is where like, We talk all the time. We know each other we were roommates like, and now we're sitting here on this a little bit more formal platform correct. And in a more official capacity, but also, that is the point of this podcast is I just want to take these conversations that I have with people in our everyday lives, about art and life and struggles and joys and all of it and just record it. So that's all it is, in theory.
Thomas Hodges
I love that. I love all that.
Jessica Altchiler
Okay, so my first question I'm going to ask you, Thomas Hodges is what is your human bio? So what is your bio that exists off of your professional resume?
Thomas Hodges
Okay. Professional Panikkar? No, my human bio. I mean, I think more than anything, I've always been a dreamer. I think I'm someone who loves to dream and a nostalgia chaser and an adventure seeker. And some of my credits would include baking cakes, and breads and drawing and reading and hiking. And and more recently, I think I would include this six months sobriety.
Jessica Altchiler
I would say, we're celebrating today.
Thomas Hodges
Yes, we are, which? Yeah, what are the odds of that landing on this? I mean, it's just Perfect, I think for it to land today, but that's, that's something I would list as my biggest accomplishment for my human heart. At the moment, yeah.
Jessica Altchiler
I'm so proud of you.
Thomas Hodges
Thank you.
Jessica Altchiler
Let's start right there, because it's on the minds and in our hearts. So can you tell us a little about your journey with that?
Thomas Hodges
Yeah. Um, you know, I think I'm someone with all those other things I listed in my human bio adventure, seeker dreamer, you know, I think, I think the idea of a substance was always on my mind, and when it became and when it came in reach. It became a crutch of some kind. I think, I think alcohol. I've been drinking since I was drinking since college, you know, since those days and I'd often use it while I sat at the piano writing. And if it wasn't alcohol, if I was taking a break from alcohol, it was definitely weed. And, and I'd say about six months ago, I noticed my finances were not what I wanted them to be. I was constantly anxious about what I did or said the night before. I'd say, on average, I was drinking every day and, and I started a relationship and, and he's a really bright one who did not drink as much. And I, I noticed that I was, I could, I could say, sort of stinky, hurtful things when I was drunk. And one morning, soon after a release of my single orange tree, which was, I'd say, the last party I attended, where I did partake and drinking. I woke up, I'd say three days later, was my mom's birthday, August second. I woke up with the shakes, just feeling horrible. Again, again and again. And I'm like, What is this? What am I actually chasing? Am I do I enjoy drinking? Or do I enjoy escaping my mind? Is that why I'm doing it? And so I said, this can't continue. I don't think for many reasons. And there's there's deeper, deeper holes of despair there that I may or may not get into, but but I had this inkling suspicion that the carelessness with which I partook in alcohol, could one day kill me. And so I said, let's start with a week. Let's start with a week. And then a week became a month. And I'd say about a month in I went I think I need this to be my life. And here we are six months later, and that's six months with no hangovers. You know, that's, that's six months of writing with a clear head and making and performing with a clear head. And I remember like, even the first performance I did with my good friend Gracie Lee Brown at the bitter end, a friend came up to me afterwards and said, You look so different, and you perform so different, your face looks clear, your stage presence is glowing. And, and, and I looked back at videos from like, when I'd have a glass of whiskey, right by the piano, you know. And there's there was a deadness in my eyes, there was a you know, and it's it's reflective of think of, I think the part of my soul, I was numbing and, and that's how we're here, you know, I think I think art and substances and making art and substances and, and specifically alcohol in New York City, it's, it's a, it's a difficult thing to break away from for artists because it's so entwined with what we do. And I guess what I would say real quick to anyone out there thinking about sobriety or, or beginning their journey and going I don't know if I can do it, like, I get it. I was there and you know, it is possible and I believe in you and it's a tough journey and at times a lonely journey, but I have not experienced anything more rewarding in my life than being sober.
Jessica Altchiler
Thank you for sharing all that. Yeah. I know that you had mentioned to me how your creative process and your ability to write and perform I change drastically and you sent me a song. So Thomas will frequently send me songs that he writes and sometimes be like, let's work on this together, is about that's what I'm thinking of. And other times, I'm just sitting there and I listened to some seven minute song he sings me, and I'm writing back immediately, like taking notes in real time sending texts back. And the most recent one you sent me was so beautiful. And I know it meant a lot to you, because of the fact that you were sober writing it and you felt this shift? Can you talk about that a little bit more?
Thomas Hodges
Yeah, there was a shift for me. I'm going to try to describe it because I've been thinking about what I want to say about that, you know, for me, music has always been a, a search for something like I use music to search for something right to explore. So that's, that's like, if you ever sing my songs, it's characters like, trying to figure something out. It's not, you know, it's like, how do I, Why won't this person why can't I tell this person that I love them, or the regret of you know, like, what is going on inside? And, and I think, when I was writing drunk when I was drinking and writing, my songs focused a lot on pain, but not the hopeful side of pain. I think sometimes it got there. But more than anything, there was a sense of regret, a sense of like, pulling downward and fighting against, right, so the idea of like, I think, by having my singers being dragged and the singer must rise. Lately, I've been really, I've been writing from a place of wonder, and play, and joy, because, because writing and music is my is my substance. And, and the song I sent you, it's called drift. And, and it is a really special song to me. I just pulled up the lyrics, because I want to read a section of it. The section I'm going to read, I'm just going to read it. What if this is all of it? What if we're just missing as the seasons start to shift? As we drift, as the shoreline dissolves to the horizon? What if this is what we'll miss, when our souls start rising? And the seasons are a gift, as we drift, as our dreams give way to New Horizons, it was like this acknowledgment for me that this moment, is truly the moment. And as performers, we pull people do that every day, right? We pull them into the moment. But how can we do that truly effectively, if we're always trying to escape or numb the moment that we're in, and it like, hit me that like, as a writer, as a, as a songwriter, as a, as a spell caster, as I like to call it, it's my responsibility to hold the moment to look within, so that I can excavate and bring that to others. And it's the first time that I think, when I this song, I was kind of laughing because I've noticed that the songs that I write lately, could like be marketed to Christian rock, I think. But I'm not. I'm not at all like, really your vibe. No, it's so it kind of like, like, of like, of like, singing these songs. I have a song called like, I believe in you, which I wrote for my partner at it's like, all about like rain and like elements that it's like, I believe in you the way the way that you move water, and I'm like, this could very well be about Jesus. I don't like but that's not me, you know. But I thought that's an interesting thing, that my music is shifting from this shifting towards wonder, and I thought, how lovely. What if we all shift towards wonder, and this song specifically drift was about fear and the way that that the fear of and pain and strife of generations, the ones that come before us that we won't necessarily touch but we might feel the impacts of but we don't experience the way that people did right decades ago. And Our fear and our global pain is uniquely ours and won't be felt in the same way. decades down the road. So how do we how do we find wonder in these moments? And how do we recognize the uniqueness? And in some ways the uniqueness of this moment? I think that's really what what I'm trying to say. And know that it will pass know that it will the rain will wash away the wars again, I'm quoting myself well. But like that seasons, you know, that this is a season, but what we do in this season is so important, and how we, what we plant the seeds, we plant the the gardens, we water and the gardens we uproot, and, and destroy. It's just, I'd much rather look at everything with wonder than with dread and regret.
Jessica Altchiler
You always you destroyed me always. So, I always say that Thomas is magic. And I think anyone listening can understand a little better why I always say that and feel that way. And I am just going to rewind a little bit. And we're going to we're going to come back to this. But I'm curious, because when I have heard, so let me let me give a whole little origin story. Great. So this is a perfect example of how I can't just be like Thomas and I were roommates. And then we became friends. And that's it. Like I always needed to go into where we were at that time of life and everything. So I had been going through a very hard time of my life, in the year after I graduated college, and I decided to like move away from New York. And I went on this whole journey to different countries. And I came back stayed with my friend Josh and Washington Heights. And from there thought, Okay, I do want to be back in New York for a little bit. And I only looked at apartments in Washington Heights on the, I think it's called, I don't know, some Facebook page that I looked at just in Washington Heights. And the way that the place that Thomas was living in was marketed was as like the ultimate friend's apartment. I was like, hell yeah, I'm into this. And I went, and I met with somebody living there who didn't even end up living with me for longer than a week, I think. But he's the only one I met. I just had this feeling about this place. And I looked at other places, too, but I just kept coming back to this place. And I decided to move in. And it still is mind blowing to me, because I was in a place where I was so emotionally hurt. And like, I was very distrusting of strangers, and of men. And I moved into this apartment with three men. Strange. This day, I'm like, What the fuck? And so Thomas was one of those roommates. And there was, it was a it was a four bedroom it had like a little spare room with a piano. And one day I'm in my bedroom, and I hear Thomas playing this song called sunlight. And I am I I just started sort of tiptoeing towards that room like this. What am I? What am I hearing right now? What is he playing, and I listened from afar and then I go in, and I asked, and he's like, Oh, this is sunlights from a musical I've written called Sanada and 1962. And my time there was so hard and so healing all at once. And at the time, I was so afraid to sing in front of all their all musical theater people. And I was so afraid to sing, I wouldn't even sing in the shower. And then eventually, throughout time, everyone was so kind and encouraging. And we would just sing for fun. Like we would just have these jam sessions. And Thomas would play songs, sometimes his song sometimes Broadway songs, sometimes like random pop songs. And we would just have fun singing and it was so therapeutic. And then saw Thomas was going to have a reading for Sonata that was eventually going to be done at The New York musical festival, correct. And I said to him, Listen, if you he was going to do the reading in our apartment. And I was like, if you need anything at all, like, I'll bring people coffee, I'll assist you. I can send out emails, whatever you want. I just want to be a part of this thing. Like, I know that this is fucking special. And a once in a lifetime musical. And just and I knew I wanted to be connected to you in any way I could. So I was like anything. And then a few days or a week later, Thomas was like, Hey, would you read for the lead character Laura, in the reading. Like what she had never acted, I had never sung in front of anybody at that point at all. And, and I knew it meant something I knew it wasn't something that he was pitying me like he is not this is important to him, this is his profession. This is his career. And this is his baby that he's created. And so he's not just giving this to me as like, you can do it little one. And that night that we did the reading, was one of the best nights of my entire life to this day. Oh, it, I remember, and I'm an I'm an early bird. So like nine o'clock is my bedtime theater schedule does not work for me. And we finished you're on 11 something and I remember going up to you being like, let's do it again. Let's do it again right now. And that changed everything. For me. Everything for me, I was connected to performing again, but in a different way, in an evolved way, it had nothing to do with dance. And it reminded me just of the magic that's possible when you kind of start listening to your intuition again, and I had gotten into this apartment just from my intuition, I had connected with you because I was pulled to and we kind of were pulled towards each other. And the music you were writing was so brilliant. And so moving, there was not one dry eye in that entire apartment. And I that and that was just the beginning. I can't believe that was just the beginning. I can't believe it. And you've been a source of joy and of healing at a magic and of processing and discovering for me and for so many people. And I just want to first of all, I just want to thank you. I'm gonna sell like snotty
and. And every time I get to sing your music, I feel so grateful. And anytime that we get to like work on it together is just an extra added bonus. And I love you forever. I love your music forever. I from the second I heard that song, I knew you were fucking special. And we're going to have a career that blew you and everyone else away. And I know it's still somehow only beginning because of what you are capable of and what you are destined for. And that's that I just I really wanted to throw that in because as I'm sitting here, getting teary eyed as you're reading your lyrics, I I just need to celebrate that origin story because it's not your origin story, but it's our origin story. And it's an origin story of me. And like, it's my origin story, honestly, as a performer, because I don't I just don't know where I would be. Without that experience without having met you. I definitely wouldn't be singing. I definitely I wouldn't have had that opportunity to try acting and singing in a safe, supportive space. And as we know with me, then I don't know if I would have done it if I didn't have that kind of safe, supportive space. And I have been like kind of writing songs on my own like just singing into my phone and writing lyrics and everything for a while and I would never think to actually turn them into songs. If it wasn't for you and knowing that I had you too. We'll do it with Yeah.
Thomas Hodges
You know, you're
Jessica Altchiler
my life changer.
Thomas Hodges
Well, it's, it means so much to hear you say all that. And then also it's like, you know, it's like I feel the same about you. And that time in that apartment. Baby, it makes me think about the importance of play in your art, you know, of enjoying it, and not always grinding, grinding, grinding, like, like, just, there's an Ani DiFranco line. People used to make records as in a record of an event, the event of people making music in a room. Think about that often like that those that moment of us around the piano was art, and it was art for us. And no one else, you know, and could the community that you cultivate directly affects the art that you create. And the way you I think your soul feels when you make it like I think about I think about the times where I would sit in and I there was a song I wrote treason, which is on me and Ryan James Monroe's album time travelers, right. And I remember writing it, and I, I, like, pulled you into the room. And I was like, I just, I need you here, just while I write this, and I need us to talk about it. And I just, I need your encouragement. And I did, like I really did, it was such a painful song to write. I always talk about music, writing music as exercising demons. And that was a big demon that was like, it's a six and a half minute song of demons. And it was a hard song to write and play. And you are you You love art, and you love artists so much that you're able to, to give the right feedback, to give it in the right way. That's supportive. And it's about exploring and less about what's right and what's wrong. And it really, it that was a special time. And I think that's a special message for us all to remember that, that we need, we need to play, we need to enjoy the art we're making. And, and that's kind of my new motto, I'm not going to write music that I don't want to listen to, I'm not going to make an album that I don't want to listen to time travelers is I like listening to it. That was my goal, I want to make an album that I want to listen to, I want to write a musical that I'm working on a new musical right now. That's just for me. And it's it's it's a new experience. It's not about you know, trauma and like terror, you know, gay people getting electrocuted, and losing their memory. Which, which again, please produce that show. That's the data is a beautiful show, and needs to be done. For many reasons. Yes, but, but I was like, I want to write something that is playful, and makes my heart sing with joy. And, and I'm sitting here at the piano to toot my own horn, but like, looking at what I'm writing in wonder. I'm like, Whoa, this is crazy shit. This could be so people gonna be blown away by this. I'm blown away by this. And the joy of that, right? It's no longer about proving anything. It's just about knowing who you are, knowing what you can do. And having fun. I think that's what the great artists ultimately did, right? Was they just made the art they wanted to make. And it's community that helps you realize that I think or the wrong community can can make you have the adverse effect. Right and, and make you lose that spark of creation that you have.
Jessica Altchiler
It circles back to the choice of becoming sober, where you're saying, what is working and what is not working in my life? Yes. So whether that's your sobriety, or it's the people you surround yourself with, or it's the job that you have, because that is also a hard thing about being an artist in this capitalist world, right? Like, we do need to make money. Sometimes we need art to make money. And sometimes that's going to mean something different than if we were to just sit and make exactly what we wanted to make. And I think that, you know, it's a hard thing to reckon with. But if you have those moments where you're sitting at the piano with the people you love and Having a jam session. And then the next day, you have to write something that maybe you don't want to write for somebody giving you money to write it. But you had that fuel, you had that moment with your people, and you have that kind of inspiration. And, yeah, it also made me think about how, as artists, there's so much time in our lives where we are. We're trying to chase a feeling, because we have performed right, and we know how exciting and thrilling and adrenaline filled that can be. And then we all of a sudden, we're not in a position where we're able to perform right now. So how am I going to chase that feeling? Or I feel like, I know, I want my music to get out into the world, but it can't, people aren't reaching it. And that's really depressing. It's really depressing. And so I'm going to find something that helps that go away. And it makes perfect sense that we can find these, or that we like, gravitate towards these coping mechanisms that ultimately end up doing harm and create this cycle for us. And it's very challenging, and brave to get out of it. And I don't, and I'm not trying to say that it's just an easy decision, you just make the decision. And that's that, all of a sudden, I'm not sober. All of a sudden, I'm not depressed, or we know whatever it is, but it's just to say, hey, it is really fucking hard. It's really, really fucking hard to be an artist to be a human being in this world. And we're all doing our best to try to cope. How can I take one step in a direction that will make me cope a little bit better, or make my life a little easier or more fulfilling just a tiny little step in the right direction? Like you said, I'm going to start off with one week. You weren't like I'm all of a sudden going to be sober 100% of my life for the rest of my life. Let's start off with one day.
Thomas Hodges
Yeah. And often, I mean, that's it. I think that's so poignant, what you're saying. Because the cycle of it, excuse me, just burped. But the, you keep that in the cycle of it, of like a, of I've had a long day, I need to wind down. Let me have a glass of wine. And for some people, it's a glass of wine. Right. And that's it. I noticed that for me, I, I would go to an event. And I would have alcohol at the event. And I was I really felt pulled by a lot of different people to show up for a lot of different people, which I think as artists, we try to do. It's hard to do. And as you build community to show up every to every event. And you feel this sort of guilt around not right? You feel like you've got to show up, at least I did. And the more events I'd show up to an event, have a drink, I'd perform the next day, have a drink afterwards. Then I'd work the next day and it'd be happy hour. Can we have a little you know, can we have a meeting over a drink? Can we everything became over a drink to the point that when I didn't have an event, I'd be home alone. And be like, well, now I have time. Now I have time. But I'm still tired. And I still want a drink. And then I have a drink and then the next morning, I'd wake up I need to sleep a little later. I mean that alcohol just does that to you. Right? it dehydrates you. You have to pee a million times at night. And then next thing you know you didn't get any good sleep. And, and then suddenly, I realized I could show I couldn't show up for as many events because I was too tired from drinking the night before. I even canceled some voice lessons at times because I was hungover and this this cycle of and then then that makes shame right then you're suddenly in a shame spiral. And And now here's the difference. Showing up for things is still hard. But I'm not carrying a hangover with it. I can show up, I can be tired and I can sleep really good the next night and writing music no longer and sitting down and writing something. My inhibitions might not be you know washed clean from the alcohol. But my focus has narrowed my I literally my technique on the piano has improved, since being sober. It's not that I didn't have the technique, it's that I was sloppy with it because I was more interested in chasing a feeling and not chasing the truth. And the truth and forcing to look at the truth was that I was not operating at a full tank of gas, I was operating constantly on empty and an out alcohol was doing that, you know?
Jessica Altchiler
And what was the feeling you're chasing? That's
Thomas Hodges
a good, a good that. I love that. Okay, so I have this song I wrote called The other life. And it's all about colors and sunsets, and it's like, within reaches the other place the other life. I don't know, I don't even think it has a name. Like, I don't think I can accurately describe the feeling I was chasing, but I can give you hints of it. It's running through the sprinklers, as a child with my sister at sunset while my dad is listening to kick see 96.5 soft rock, you know, like, like, it's that sort of nostalgia. It's watching the sunset, over the Pacific, and then turning and seeing the the clouds turn this sort of violet purple. It was a late night with my first kiss, you know, this sort of forbidden romance, right? When I was a gay kid in the closet. It's these moments that maybe in the moment, I wasn't feeling, right. But I came to this realization that when I sit at the piano and play music, that is the other place the other life that is the feeling. And drinking actively made me do that less, I think drinking was the facade drinking was the the rose colored glasses, you know. And the other thing about drinking is that drinking loves company. And I learned pretty quickly like that. And I'd say to this day, too, you know, a lot of people in my life will will say that I never had a drinking problem. They'll just say I didn't. It wasn't, you know, and I think it's because I could keep up with them. And they could keep up with me. But what people don't realize is that whether you're drinking two bottles of wine a night, which was sometimes me, or just having one glass every night, your problem is it's different for everyone. And you get to define it. You get to decide if you want to stop or keep going, you get to decide what serves you and your life. No one else can decide that for you. And in fact, other people who might might be feeling awful everyday with a hangover might not be ready to face their own issues with alcohol. Especially in an industry and a city that glorifies drinking. There's a great musical on Broadway right now. Oh my gosh, I just saw it last week called Days of Wine and Roses. And it is it's about alcoholism. And it's a it's a beautiful score by Adam get all and starring starring Brian d'Arcy James and Kelly O'Hara. I could not recommend the show more. The score has a lot to chew on. And it's dark because it feels the show lit it feels when you watch it. Like you're you're getting so you start drinking and it's fun. And then then by the end of the show, you're like, Okay, ah, I don't feel so good. And it explores so many things about getting sober that that I felt people couldn't, didn't understand or didn't want to see if they hadn't gotten sober. And it does it without apology. There's this wonderful line that Kelly O'Hara sings. The basic story is, you know, I don't want to give anything away but I'm going to but she, you know, she's, he's at this moment. He's trying to get sober and she doesn't want to. And she says to him in her beautiful soprano. What about the church we built? Do I have to go there alone? And I cannot stop thinking about that line because I went that is it. That is when when people when you tell people you've stopped drinking and they're like, we'll see how long that lasts. Or you tell them you know I have a problem. They're like, but you don't have a problem. You don't have a problem and they're drinkers They don't want to go to that church alone. Because then because then the whole thing might just fall down for them the way it did for me, and I think that's what saved me ultimately was, I was drinking alone a lot. And when you're alone, there is no alcohol. It's really only fun with others.
Jessica Altchiler
It is true that that's the thing people do. You start in college, and it's so normalized, to get drunk and to blackout and to throw up and to do all these things. It's normalized. Yeah. And then, you know, use like, some people start doing it less as they get older, and some people don't. And then you're in New York, or wherever you are. And the thing to do is to like you're saying, Go to the happy hour, or go get a drink at night, or have a drink when we're going out to dinner, or whatever it is. And, again, it's not about shaming that. It's just about saying, Let me question if this is working for me, or not serving
Thomas Hodges
me. Yeah. Because it's, you know, and it's interesting to alcohol is the only drug where you have to offer an explanation as to why you're not doing it. I find that so interesting. You know, you, you. People always want to know, oh, why why do you stop drinking? No one goes, Why do you stop smoking crack? Or stop? You know, what's interesting, is there are more deaths associated with I mean, more people die from alcohol every year than every other drug combined. combined. And yet we, we pretend we don't want. I find that to be a unique ingredient of it. And again, it's not to shame drinking in any way. Like I think I think many people can have healthy relationships with substances. But I think sometimes, it is a good question to ask yourself, if you even have an inkling of whether is this serving me? What serves me? Is this community serving me? Is this artistic project? I'm on serving me? Is this job that I hate serving me? It is, it is the most important question that we need to ask ourselves daily. as artists and as people what, what is serving me and my soul? Because no one else is going to ask that question for you. Other people just want to take take take on more power to them, you know, like, absolutely. And no substance is going to ask that question for you. I did a I'm like, here, I'm trying to like tout sobriety, like get sober gets over. But, but, but truly one of the things I did after reading this wonderful book called The unexpected joy of being sober, because she was she was her journey was similar to mine, where everyone was like, You're the life of the party, you know, we're gonna miss you, whatever. She calculated the, the finances. And now as artists, we need to always need to have a deeper eye on our finances as freelance art artists, right? Because we're not getting necessarily a salary job. And, and so I did a deep dive. And I was like, what does 20 to $30 a day on alcohol and alcohol related costs cost us and it's nearly 10 grand a year. And that's, and that's really two drinks a day, you know, when you think about it, and a subway ride, right? Or? And then that's maybe throwing in a day off, but with a lift after a late night. I mean, it's it's not an it's not an unrealistic amount that most people are spending. And I'm like, Well, what if $10,000 A year went towards your new album or your the book that you're writing and you want to get published? It's there. We just have to find it. You know? That was That's my my middle class upbringing. And my mom and dad speaking through maybe like they that really was a game changer for me.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, that's, it also makes me think about people's relationship to what you're saying about other people saying, Oh, you're the life of the party and all that it reminds me so much of when people want to leave New York. Yes. Because I remember when, when we graduated college, one of our roommates decided to leave New York And I was like, That's fucking crazy. Like, you just went to college here. And now we get to like be adults here and all this stuff. And then literally one year later, probably less. I was like, Wait, I don't think that I don't think I want to be here. And it I have spent many years like in and out of New York, whether it was for a job or just traveling, or I've kind of been a wanderlust kind of gal. But Thomas can tell you that all those years ago, the year out of college, I was like, I need to be somewhere warm, I need to be somewhere Sunny, I need to be hot, both for my mental health and my physical health. Like I have autoimmune stuff, my joints hurt in the cold all of this. And there's this battle I still have when I'm traveling, and I'm outside of New York, where it's like, you have to go back there, like you have to go back to it. That's, that's why I went to college in New York, because that's where you're supposed to go to be a dancer. And then it's supposed to be where you're like, it's your you're supposed to be when you're a performer, all these things. And it's just not true. It's objectively not true. And it makes me think of how easy it is for people to be like, You shouldn't leave New York, you should be here. But also partially because like, how badly do you really want to be there? Or how much do you feel that pressure to stay? Yes. And it makes me think of that?
Thomas Hodges
Yeah, I think I think it's, that's such a great comparison. I really, I love that because it is, it's, it's also like the idea of hosting an event without alcohol or even know. But like, you know, these, like alcohol has to be involved. Right. But also New York. I like to think of New York more as a tool. And you can call upon it at any moment. But we can we should not ever, ever give something power to make us feel trapped. To me, that's that's also addiction. And, and that's the hardest thing, right? To get out of the claws of that because you don't see it necessarily when you're in it. But when you leave New York or when you get sober, you could see or you know, anything at all right? It could be other things too. But you, you have perspective on something without the thing perspective. And that's what art gives us perspective. We are, we are masters that perspective at making a providing people perspective into their lives. And and for people so good at that. It's a wonder that sometimes we don't do it for ourselves. And we don't make the space to do it for ourselves. Because we deserve that. The sooner we we realize that in our lives. The fact that I mean, it almost happened immediately for me. I found space for faith, whatever that is, you know, I'm exploring what faith is and means in my life. I find it in my songs, I find music, I found space to bake. And I found space to make amazing art. And to fall in love and to go for runs and to do the things I enjoy. And I'm still commuting into New York four days a week, if not more. And because of that commute, I have space to read. I have space. And what I had space for in New York City was to drink. I had space to drink again. I drank. I drank.
Jessica Altchiler
Do you think that you would have a harder time not drinking if you were still living in New York.
Thomas Hodges
I you know when I got sober August 2, and I moved out of New York City, like officially January 11. So not like too long ago. I was spending a lot of time out here in New Jersey. But I did find every time I was in the city, it was a little tougher. And and it was when I talk sometimes about the lonely part of sobriety is like people gather at bars and the habit, the feeling of the other life. It sits at a bar counter, you know, looking out watching the sun slowly set behind, you know, the Hudson and sipping on a beer like it's the feeling of that Recently I went to a bar and I was the only one not drinking, which bars come on bars, you need to get some non alcoholic options, let's just, let's just throw that out there. And but I noticed that once we got to the bar, the conversation kind of died. And people were just focused on what they were drinking next. This is not the birthplace of creativity. This is not the birthplace of joy. And I left, you know, rather early. But it's, it's hard to go anywhere in New York City that's a bit leisurely, and not find someone drinking. And I think for someone who's especially looking to be sober, and who's starting that journey, that's difficult. And and people, you know, I'm lucky, like everyone in my life has been very supportive. And I have friends bringing non alcoholic options, you know, but but there's a there's something tough about watching everyone descend into this. This tunnel you used to love descending into, and knowing that, you know where they're going. You've been there. And and there's comfort and that there's such comfort in living in those sunken places. But it's false. At least for me, I think, yeah. I feel like I sound like a preacher. Like I'm like, I'm like, you know, I don't mean to
Jessica Altchiler
you sharing your experience. And you're not saying everyone should be sober. And that's the end of it, you're offering something up, you're offering your own story, as a starting point for someone else who may 1 of all who have maybe someone has never even thought about this before, maybe someone has never even questioned what they use and how they use it and why and how it relates to their work and their art and whether they have been unemployed, and they're down about it. And they're working a job they don't like and they're using that to cope, or whether it's something connected to your creativity and you sit down and you think, oh, I need to be high to write this thing. Or I need to be a little drunk to make this thing. Whatever it is, we're just opening. We're just allowing questions to come in curiosity about where we are, where we stand, who we're surrounded by what we're surrounded by, and how it's going to impact how we feel what we make. And just like our general well being, which is something that has historically been not expressed as artists who are like just trying to get a job and trying to get this thing sold and that thing made and Okay, but how, okay, that thing gets sold or that production goes up, or we booked that job, then what, then are you spending those nights when you get home from your show? Oh,
Thomas Hodges
yes, yes. Yes. That that you come home, you shut the door behind you? What's left?
Jessica Altchiler
What then? Yeah. I want you to share more if you can about the various projects, musicals that you've made songs that have stood out to you, I want to highlight something that relates to what we're talking about, which is, a couple of years ago, we met for sushi on the Upper West Side in between your voice lessons that you were teaching. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thomas also is my voice teacher, by the way. And he teaches piano and he does like all of your musical needs. So I could not recommend working with him anymore for like, anything that you need a new mute, like new songs for your book, preparation for your audition, if you want to write a song if you want to learn to play piano if you want to improve your anything. Okay, that's my thank you. That's my plug. Do it. run, don't walk. And so we met. And Thomas was going through some stuff. And we were talking about without getting into too many details we were talking about, like, what you were feeling in that moment, and also how it was stunting what you were trying to make, like your creative process. And I invited the idea to write about this feeling right now. Where you are right now. What is holding you back where you are in this moment and The next time I went to one of your cabarets, you sang the song that you wrote from that conversation. Yeah. And it was one of my favorite songs you have ever written. It was a live and electric. And yeah, you talked about shady stuff and what you were working through, but it felt like I was listening to a process. I was listening to a person actively in healing, not who went from a to b, but who was like, in that messy middle ground. And I felt it in my bones in my cells in my blood, like, what was it called? Rough
Thomas Hodges
Draft? I think I mean, the name of the I mean, I wrote a whole show that based on a one man show that, you know, like, I kind of compare it to like, my, it's like my tick, tick, boom, right? It's, it's like, how do I talk about my situation? And the life we're in? Post, you know, COVID? Or, I guess, still COVID? I'm not, I'm not sure that that's way to describe a post post, you know, 2020. And, and yeah, they're the name of the game has 24 hours, 24 hours every day, write up a report for 24 hours. How did you spend your time today? Did you, you know, like all the pressures we put on ourselves, which is interesting, because I just submitted that show. I was someone asked me, theater asked me if I had a one person show that I've written I was like, actually, so. So you know, fingers crossed. But but it was, yeah, that was right about the here and now I and you know, what's interesting is again, I think that show really pushed me towards sobriety because in that show, there's, there's an arc of like, me. There's a lyric in a bar, where there's no one who knows me, you know, and knows my, like, the idea of like, dating in New York City, and but that was such a poignant conversation. I love that because and that's part of what you're so great at justice. Like you, you were such an active listener, you really do listen, and you offer you offer advice that supports growth, and, and it it it's that that conversation is why that show happened I booked a date to do my one person show before I had the show written which if you're if you're looking to write a show and perform it just book a date, book a date. I can remember where that advice came from. But it's real you know, book a date start selling tickets, you'll write something. And, and yeah, that was rough draft rough draft. That is one I want to pull back out. But um, because that's that's a show that was only done once, you know.
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, that that one song in particular. I remember just like, it perfectly represented. Everything from that moment.
Thomas Hodges
Yeah. I've one of my favorite lines is a dream is a wish your heart makes I blame Disney. For the sort of. Yeah, that was that was a fun show.
Jessica Altchiler
It's fun. And it can capture how it captures how everything that feels really heavy and hard. Can have levity. Yes, and can have joy and bright colors and brightness within it. And that perfectly represented that
Thomas Hodges
there was an one of my favorite moments in that show. And I'm so glad it's I have it on video is a song that I wrote called teacher because one of the things that I have always sort of struggled with when it comes to identity, and that people have in our industry have very strong opinions about that, you know, and I don't think they're wrong. That you know, to pick one composer, teacher, you know, like, pick one to identify as because it makes it easier for people to, to categorize you. Well, you know, I taught I taught full time as a music teacher at a prep school, sixth through 12th grade for six and a half years and I still, I still freelance there, which I love. That was my kind of compromise to make it work. You know, I love teaching. I love it with every, every I always say I want my last day on earth to be me, sitting at a piano with a kid, teaching them how to play something. And then I want to go home and pass away. People are always like, well, hopefully not at the piano with the kid that's years of trauma work. Can you imagine write a
Jessica Altchiler
song about that? I don't write.
Thomas Hodges
But I had this moment of what is teaching what is the Being a teacher. And Sondheim talks about it two and six by Sondheim that it's one of the secret art forms. We're teachers as artists. That was there's this moment in the show, where a former student of mine comes up to me on the street and says Mr. Hodges, which when that happens, you know, that never I'll never get used to Mr. Hodges, but But it happens quite often, especially in New York. It's a small small town, you know, that child who's now a grown adult will always see me as Mr. hajus. And I think about my, you know, Mrs. Traeger, right, my my, my Mr. Redfern, all my, my teachers that I see and the impact they had then. And I wrote the song that was an ode to teachers. And the way they save lives, our identities, we could spend a lot of time going, am I a real artist? If I'm not making a certain amount, am I a real? Am I am I settling? Or am I taking the easy way out? If I find another job to support my art or teaching, I think those those vampires and impostor syndrome, voices, haunt all of us, across the board. But what I what I loved about that show in that moment was, there's there's a moment where I realized on stage, I didn't know what was going to happen. I talked about how these teachers saved my life as a child, and and I realize in I'm a teacher. And I'm a writer, feeling grateful, feeling whole feeling hopeful that this world can grow. Because of teachers. We're all teachers. This is a moment, right? This this podcast. That's the goal, right? To talk about something to teach something to, to grow in some way. We can teach love, we can teach forgiveness and kindness. We can teach healthy habits, and we can grow. Yeah, Jess, you're a great teacher. I feel it every time we talk. And that's, that's I think, you know, what I realized is this act of teaching this act of creating, it's the same thing. It's just different, different rooms of the same house, you know?
Jessica Altchiler
Yeah, makes me think about how I have such a hard time labeling myself. Because I feel like so I have done one job in a lot of different categories. Like I have been in one feature film, I have performed in one theater production, one Associate Director, job one assistant director, job, one associate, choreographer, job, one podcast, one blog, one book, and the like. First of all, I don't feel like defining myself as all of these things, like I just want to be, hey, I'm just me, and I make these things and I do these things. And that feels, right. And maybe that'll evolve over time. Maybe I will become just one thing. I don't think that's who I am. And I also wonder if I feel very allergic to the labels, because my whole life, it was just like, I'm a dancer, I'm a dancer, I'm a dancer, I'm a dancer, and I am a dancer. And even in even though I'm not doing it professionally, right now, I'm still a dancer. And so how we see ourselves and how we label ourselves on our websites and our Instagram pages and things like that. It brings up such an interesting conversation about like, I have this a lot with my students who identify as movers. So for those who are listening who don't know, if you're an actor and singer and you're in theater, and you can dance, but you wouldn't necessarily go into an audition explicitly for dancers. You will call yourself a mover that's kind of the terminology. And I've had so many conversations with my students like what do I put on my website? My remover, am I a dancer? And like, there's no there's no specific there. The why is a very fine line. And I think that that stuff is just so challenging because it puts you in your own box on top of the boxes already. You're already for sent to by our industry and in society, like we're always put in these boxes and given these labels and everything. But as a teacher, that's been tricky too, because I went from explicitly teaching ballet like classical ballet and technique and getting people, specifically high school students ready for a summer intensive audition, or just generally working with them. And it's evolved so much into now I talk to them about their lives and their careers. And I do audition prep, and I do audition prep for acting sometimes, and all these different things. And so I still feel weird about what to label myself and my teacher, and my coach, and my guide and my mentor. I'm kind of all of those things. Yeah, but do I say all of those things? Or do I come on,
Thomas Hodges
that's a lot to read, you know, a
Jessica Altchiler
lot to feed if I'm gonna put every single label that I have ever had. So I don't really know what I'm trying to say. But
Thomas Hodges
we contain multitudes. But I also think it's like, that's a lovely thing. You just said to like, what am I first? What am I first today? And it's like, what am I first for this project? What am I first? And this moment, and, like, lately, I've been saying composer first because it's like, that's, that's what I'm doing. But But, but, uh, you know, if I'm applying to a teacher job is gonna be a teacher, you know? But it is, it's, I think it's okay to, we should reevaluate it constantly. Because also, I like what you said about boxes, because to me, I also think prison, again, the idea of like, being in this container, this knots, no perspective, when you're in a box, right? Only from the box you're in, can you give that perspective, and I think it's very natural to not want to put yourself in a box.
Jessica Altchiler
It's so limiting to, and also it, it's an evolution of how we're trained as young people, like, I was a dancer who danced and so I was called the dancer and like, you are an actor, that's, that was your you, you were an actor back then, and composer, and all these songwriter, all these different things. And I think it's a way of limiting ourselves and other people and meaning us and what is possible. And as artists, we are inherently fluid in what we make and what we create, and what we're feeling and how that's going to be expressed. So, sometimes, I'll tap into poetry, where sometimes I'll be writing essays, or I've been working on a TV show, or whatever it is, like, I'm not going to go and say I'm a screenwriter, I'm not going to go and say I'm a poet, but I'm tapping into these different things. And that's okay.
Thomas Hodges
Yeah, I like to say I just like to say we're spellcasters. magic is real, you know, get your book of shadows, whether it's a script, a recipe book, a score, but you're a spell caster, we are the magicians and sorcerers of the world, you know. And while
Jessica Altchiler
you're creating things that are then making people feel something, yes. Or be inspired or be healed, or whatever it is, it makes me think also of in that room when we did Sanada, you could feel people's responses to it. You could feel how moved they were. And similarly, when we did the life of Mary Rogers, yes. In that room, so it was another reading. And again, this was last year it was it was
Thomas Hodges
last February, like about a year ago. Yeah. Yeah. So that
Jessica Altchiler
was another one another musical that Thomas had written. And we did another reading for it. And he asked me to read for the lead again, which again, still all these years later, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so happy. It was so fun. And again in that room, even though people were all masked. Yes, it was like stuff going around. And you and Ryan, were about to have your big show. So you want to be careful too. Yeah. And people were moved even behind the masks. And you could feel it when you can feel the energy in a room shift from something that was said or sung or played. That is magic.
Thomas Hodges
I think I think back to Sanada again, getting an email after one of the best Yeah, it and even I can attribute Sanada to me meeting Ryan and that collaboration because because he messaged me after watching it and was so moved and wanted to sing some thing of mine. And I heard is, you know, and that's that's we don't know the ripple effect of our actions. We don't sometimes the best intent can cause harm. And sometimes the most selfish act can create something beautiful. We just don't know, right? But it's fun to go back and trace it. And with Sanada I remember saying to Patti early on, one day, someone's going to email us and thank us for the show. So not as about a young lesbian couple. And in 1962, and Laura, our protagonist, she, she goes away to to college, and she's a piano player, and she falls in love with this, this girl Sarah, and they, they get arrested at a lesbian bar and she gets kicked out of school and her single mom, Margaret, she has her submitted, she asked the doctor what we can do, I don't want my daughter's future to be ruined. And he says conversion therapy, which at the time was a few things, lobotomies, it was electro convulsive therapy, which is still used today, but in a very different context. And I tried to be clear about that, because there are many people that benefit from it and, and really, actively not for conversion therapy. But like for like other other things, people, you know, I don't want to like villainize AECT. But at the time against, you know, someone's will it was, it was not good. And Laura loses her ability to play piano. And along with memory, and this is this, that's the basis of the story is coming to terms with that pain, and the mom coming to terms with that, that her actions. But I got an email after one of the performances. From a man who had come up he was he said, he's 30 years old, he came up from Florida to see Come From Away with his mom. He's like, we were looking for that elusive matinee and saw your show and. And he came to see it. And he explained that after the show him and his mom went to lunch, and they were talking about the importance of being your authentic self. And, and I'll never forget, like reading this, and he goes, and that's when it happened. After 31 years, I told my mom, I'm gay. And it was like, you know, you work so hard. And so long, as an artist, as a writer, you do the hustle, you do all the things you're supposed to do. And I remember I said to Patti, I'm like that, knowing the impact you can have on one person that is the ripple. I don't care. I mean, I want that impact to happen for 1000s. Right. But we did it, we did something. The spell was cast. And healing has begun for someone. That was that was the that I think that's the moment I understood the responsibility and the power of, of artmaking.
Jessica Altchiler
That show is so special. I would do anything to be in. It's so funny. Throughout this podcast, people will hear me like, say, Oh, I'm not sure about performing and this and that. But in my episode with Jessica, I say, I tell the story about how she was saying, Oh, I'm choreographing a production of Cabaret. And I immediately was like, when's the audition? Yeah, without hesitation. And it's the same thing with anything that you're doing. You say anything, I'm there. Like, I don't even have to read it. I don't have to look at it. Think about it. 1,000% Sanada specifically, and Mary Rogers, I would run towards I would run towards anything but Sinatra and Mary Rogers, really split I have a specific connection to and love them so deeply. And I desperately want more people to be able to have access to it. That's the thing too, because as a professional and as a composer and doing everything you're doing you're like yes, of course I want the theatres and places to bring my productions and because for many reasons, I also just want my work to be able to touch people, because I know it can. That's the
Thomas Hodges
whole point. We've we forget in the in the rat race that that was always the whole point from the beginning. And if I may be so bold, I want to say like I think that's with everyone and everything. I often look at politicians. I think most politicians get in the business because they want to do something good. They start with that right? I want to say that everyone has their own thing. Maybe it's its recycling, maybe it's you know, but most people get into the business of trying to make change, because they have good intention, they want to do something, they want to make change, we as artists get in, because at some point, our lives were changed by the art that we saw. And we went, I want to do that, right? And then we get, we get to, sorry, heading it, we get distracted along the way, or we get tired, or we get drunk. We, you know, I have this theory that that we're on a drunk, tired planet, and I'm gonna bring it back real quick, just to my sobriety, because it's six months, and why the hell not? Sometimes I think about what if these people that are starting wars and, and doing some? What if What if they're doing it with a hangover, and they're drunk? It scares me to think that we are, we are living on a planet where we numb ourselves to others. It's not just artists, right? It's everyone. And it's, it's almost like this thing, this the substance is a, a tool to distract from the the beautiful things we can do and the beautiful connections and the ripples that we can have. Alright, I'm gonna get off my soapbox. Now.
Jessica Altchiler
When you see horrific things happening in the world, there are two things you can do. You numb yourself, and you ignore and you try to get by, or you take action. And it's so normal and natural to want to just numb yourself to what's happening. Yeah. And there, when you do that, you're blocking off your ability to empathize, and it continues a cycle. So when you have people in power, who are making these horrific decisions, if you can, if you can look at someone directly in the eye and say, I don't think you should have these rights, I don't think you should have these resources, I don't think you should have this food, I don't think you should have this water, if you can look at them in the eye, and say that to somebody, then it shows how drastically cut off your sense of empathy is for other people. And that is what is broken.
Thomas Hodges
And that's what as artists, right as writers we are, we operate in the business of empathy, like that is people sit right and watch. And empathize. That is the whole purpose of what we do and nuance the nuances that we were the conversations you can have for two to three hours in a theater. I prefer longer shows what can I say? But something you know, something can happen there. There's an understanding, I think about that with Sanada. One of the best reviews we got was was it'd be so easy to paint the mother as this awful, terrible person that had their kid, you know, against their will submitted to conversion therapy. But what we sought to do was understand how people can do those things, we really thought from our own experiences that you can harm the people you love with the best intentions.
Jessica Altchiler
And also know that understanding someone and allowing that person to remain in a position of power or control over somebody else. That's two different things. So you can work hard to understand and see where someone's coming from, like you show in Sinatra with the mother. That doesn't mean oh, that's fine. That's
Thomas Hodges
right. It's about endorsing that action. Yeah, no, no.
Jessica Altchiler
So I always say that with like, certain leaders I have had, in my experience, where I'm like, listen, girl, I get why you are the way you are, why you treated us the way you treated us. But you need to get out of the role that you aren't hitting 100 Because you gotta go.
Thomas Hodges
Yeah, 100% could not agree more. To
Jessica Altchiler
wrap up. I just want to tell one more quick little anecdote, which is that when I was on the Fiddler on the Roof tour, I had this one date that I knew I was going to be on. And a bunch of people came from New York and from Connecticut, it was in Boston. It's actually the week before the shutdown. And Thomas came, which was incredibly kind and generous and beyond what was expected of a friend to do. And he sat in the front row. Yes. And I saw Thomas multiple times throughout that performance. And that memory just makes me so happy it This has nothing to do with anything we're talking about besides support and friendship and showing up for each other, even though I missed most of your shows, because I'm never in New York. But that night was so magical and important to me. I call it my wedding actually, because I'm like, almost everyone I love was there that when I was like the Jessica wedding like coming together and celebration, and I would not have been there without you. And so the fact that during this night where everyone, almost everyone I love came together to be there and watch me perform. And you have all people were sitting there in the front row, who I actually wait. And also the funny part of this is, there's a one song, the rumor, where we look directly out into the audience. And it's like kind of funny, and we have to make these funny faces. And I heard Thomas laugh. I really had to try really hard not to laugh. That was that was the funny, funny part of it. But I wanted to close it on that because it was just love and joy. And from the moment literally the moment I met you, you have brought such magic into my life. And I have said from that moment, how much I know you're going to continue to impact everybody's lives around you. Thank you. And I'm so excited for what's to come. I'm so proud of you for being on the sobriety journey. And for all the work that you are making now and all the work that you have made before. And oh, I also wanted to talk about the cabarets that you've made, there's so much to talk about with you, how are we going? Oh my gosh, that's okay. So much like, there's the work that you've been doing the shows you do with Gracie Lee Brown and Ryan, James Monroe. And then you have your student showcases, which is what I've been singing in there like cabarets, and they have been so fun and so supportive and lovely. And I gave you a pitch for another kind of Yeah, cabaret idea for more people to be involved. So keep your eyes out for that. Yeah. And you're just your magic you You brought me into singing for the first time. You've been the only reason that I've been back singing on a stage for the past couple of years. And you have inspired me to keep writing and I definitely have songs that I want to make together from what I've been working on on my own. And we definitely and I did I did push the idea of doing a cabaret together Yes, the two of us you did so we got to reach out and make the day and write it yes
Thomas Hodges
we do. Yeah, well I think that's perfect and if people want to know more about me you know they can check out my Instagram Thomas Hodges music or go to my website which is Thomas Hodges music.com On
Jessica Altchiler
our way out, you're going to hear a song from Thomas in the form that he sends to me in these like Voice Memo recordings. So not some published thing but an active in process work. Okay, well, thank you so much for everything thank you for being you for everything you've made for everything you've done for me for everything you've done for the world. And I'm so happy that you're here and I'm so excited for people to keep hearing all that you're doing and again this is just the beginning
Jessica Altchiler
Thank you so much for listening to the story project, it is a dream come true to get to share these stories with you. And I'm so grateful for every single guests and audience member if you're enjoying the podcast, it would be such a great help if you could do a couple things. First is to follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts wherever you listen. The next would be to rate five stars and also give us a review. And finally, share any episodes that you'd like with the people that you love. This is a podcast for the community. And the hope is that it can reach as many people as possible from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for being here. Until next time,