Jessica Chen
Show Notes
TW: This episode mentions sexual harassment and assault.
Jessica Chen is an American dancer, choreographer and Founder and Artistic Director of J CHEN PROJECT, a 501c3 nonprofit contemporary dance company. Her work has been presented at MoMA, Lincoln Center’s Restart Stages, Kennedy Center Millennium Stage, and MACY’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, to name a few. She’s currently on the director's team for The Messenger at Palm Beach Dramaworks and will next be choreographing Cabaret at Center Repertory Company.
In today’s episode, Jessica discusses the ins and outs of establishing her own dance company, what she looks for in cast members and collaborators in her commercial theater projects, and the kind of supportive environment she establishes as a leader, and requires from others.
The Jessicas dive into what it means to be truly safe in a working environment, how they have been taken advantage of in the past, and how fearful yet important it is to use their voices to address issues within the industry.
Jessica C. then flips the mic and asks Jessica A. questions about her own healing journey and what comes next.
Follow along on Jessica’s journey: @jessicachen.arts
Transcript available on our website!
Transcript
Jessica - Intro
Jessica Chen is an American dancer and choreographer based in New York City known for creating "visceral ...emotionally charged movements and choreography." She is the Founder and Artistic Director of J CHEN PROJECT, a 501c3 nonprofit contemporary dance company that recently premiered their show titled AAPI Heroes: Myths and Legends.
Her work has been presented at MoMA, Lincoln Center’s Restart Stages, Kennedy Center Millennium Stage, MACY’s Thanksgiving Day Parade, TEDx Semester at Sea, and World Expo-USA Pavilion in Shanghai. Jessica was featured in Google Arts & Culture by the Asian American Arts Alliance AND she was a 2021 GALLIM Moving Women and 2021 Dance Lab New York Choreographer.
Jessica choreographed Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella at Geva Theater, The Portal at Minetta Lane Theater, INTERSTATE at the New York Musical Festival, Jersey Boys for Weathervane Theater, Spring Awakening at Montclair State University, and the upcoming production of Cabaret at Center Repertory Company. She is currently on the director's team for The Messenger at Palm Beach Dramaworks.
Jessica
I'm here with the one and only Jessica Chen, who is one of my favorite artists and choreographers and storytellers and overall human beings ever, absolutely ever. And I'm so happy that you're here chatting with us.
Jessica Chen
Thank you, Jess. That's so sweet. The one and only Jessica Chen. That's so funny. There's a million of us, I think.
Jessica
the one and only you. Yeah. So before we get into all of the amazing things that you've done, I'd love to start us off by talking about what is your human bio? So the bio that exists off of your resume.
Jessica Chen
The one... the one only me, yes, that's right.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, so I was born and raised in Southern California. My father's Wan Zong Chen, my mother, his name is Sarah Chow, and we moved around quite a bit the first like six, seven years of my life. Like first we lived in Santa Monica, I was born in Torrance Memorial Hospital, and then we moved to San Gabriel for a little bit.And we landed in Hacienda Heights, which is really where I felt like I grew up, which is a suburban town. It's like 30 minutes southeast of downtown LA without traffic, of course. And I have two younger sisters. I'm the oldest of three. Stephanie and Ariel are my two sisters. And at one point in my childhood, my grandparents, on my mom's side, they came they moved from Taiwan and they lived with us. And during that time, my aunt, uncle, and my cousin, James, also lived with us. So our family's not too, too big, but we grew up very, very close, and a lot of cousins and aunts and uncles and parties and get togethers and everything. So it was a really, really lovely childhood. And then I went to college at the University of California in Santa Barbara, where I studied a bunch of things and got my degree in global studies. And then I moved to New York. And I have always, I've always just been curious about people, you know, why we come together, what interests us, what excites us, what scares us. And that's been true my whole life. And so now I am a choreographer director and I get to take those curiosities and explore how to implement them into stories that we see on stage and maybe one day on the screen.
Jessica Chen
my work.
Jessica
Yes, definitely amazing. So what in what brought you? How did you begin dancing?
Jessica Chen
Yeah, so I was born and raised in California. I'm the oldest and my parents are immigrants. And in the first few years of my life, all their friends were Mandarin speaking. So when I went to preschool, I didn't know English. And so I think as a result of that, I had some language barriers and then became very shy, you know, speaking was not comfortable. And so therefore communicating was not a great option. So that kind of, that like put a barrier up for me to engage and to make friends. And so I was very shy. And I was also very, very small physically, very small. And so shy and invisible, like easily to be missed. And being a Chinese born American, I had to go to Saturday Chinese schools. So my parents put me into Chinese school, six years old or something. And I learned Chinese folk dance there. And that's how I started dancing. And it just, it opened my world. I was so good at it. It was so easy for me. I never had stage fright. You would think somebody that couldn't even speak to another individual would not be able to go on a stage and perform in front of thousands of individuals, but I did that with like no, no fright. I just like loved it on stage. And I made so many friends, like all my friends were, all my best friends growing up are, I danced with and it really kind of opened a part of myself that I hadn’t accessed, and I accessed it through dance. So that's how I started dancing.
Jessica
And then what was your experience dancing as you were growing up? How did that evolve and then how did that evolve into what you decided to do in college?
Jessica Chen
Yeah, so dance, I would say, is my first love. And I have danced my whole life and it has played a significant role for me in my life. So when I first started dancing, it was at Chinese school and then with the LA Chinese folk dancers, it was a way for me to make friends. It was a way for me to express myself. It was a way for me to connect to my cultural heritage. I hated going to Chinese school. It was so hard, even though it was essentially my first language, but I quickly forgot it. It was so hard. It was an extra day of school. It were things you missed out on Saturdays, sleepovers, cartoons, all these things you just felt like you were not part of you're missing out. I was feeling FOMO. But I love dancing so it kept me in the in Chinese school. It kept me in that in that community and so I do speak Mandarin not well. My accent is pretty good. I can get away with things but I my vocabulary is not very big but I still I can speak Mandarin and it's really like an amazing thing to
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
have another perspective. Language is such a doorway into a culture and a history. And so that was essential for me. So dance was my way of connecting and being proud of my heritage. And then in junior high, high school, I joined the cheer team and the dance team. So it became then, and I was still shy, but then it, so then it became...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
my identity throughout those awkward preteen teen years where you need to like put yourself in some group somewhere. And so having that dancer identity gave me a space to go to. And then and because I've always been curious about people I never really landed in one group throughout high school, I always wanted to meet different people, but I was always the dancer. So that was an identity that I kept when I went to all the different groups in high school. And then in college, I discovered modern dance. My freshman year in one of my dance classes, the professor, she played a documentary on the Alvin Ailey Company and that was my first introduction into the Ailey repertoire and I was blown away. At that point, dance was like jazz kicks and fouette turns and illusions and like, you know, like tricks and fun and it was like, it was all for me. But then when I saw the Ailey documentary, I saw Revelations, it was something that they were speaking to an audience. So then it transformed from dance being my experience, what I love to do, to dance like communicating to an audience, like presenting a message, or sharing some insights.
Jessica
Mm.
Jessica Chen
and beyond pure entertainment, it's still entertaining, but it's beyond, it has another layer of that. So that's what college was for me. It was like, wow, this dance form has all these different ways of being. And I was like...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Really, I thought, I thought, I honestly, when I went to college, I was a business econ major. I was like, I'm retired from my dance life. Like I have to get serious now and I can't just be dancing around and stuff. And then I went to econ 1 and I was like, oh my God, I don't, I don't wanna be a business econ major. This is not interesting to me. And so then I went and started taking classes in the modern dance department. And that's when I realized, oh, my dance life is not over because there's a whole world that I still don't know about that I want to learn more about. And then after college I was in this limbo phase where I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was being pushed by my dad to go to law school. Um, and I thought maybe I could make it work at some point. I even took the LSATs and I was like, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe I can make this work. But before I committed to that, I wanted to just take a year off, just take a break to take me out of the current moment so that when I come back, I can see it clearer, I can understand what I really wanted. So I decided I was gonna take a year off and just dance because I know that would be fulfilling no matter what. So I came to New York, I went to the Ailey School and for my year off, for my year break, and I never came off of that break. I've been dancing and here we are, yeah.
Jessica
And here we are. So what was it like for you coming to New York after all those years in California and how did you adjust both as a dancer and artist and then also logistically?
Jessica Chen
Yeah, so I was really lucky. I have my senior year high school dance coach, her name is Faith Ryan. She's from New York and she moved to California, had a family and whole career, and then moved back to New York. And she had been living in New York for a while. I visited her with my cousin one spring break, we came and saw a bunch of musicals and hung out with Faith and we stayed with her. And so originally I was going to just be in New York for two months. So I was going to take a year off to dance, but I wasn't exclusive to New York yet. And so I was just going to come for two months. I started at the Ailey Summer Intensive. And Faith said, come stay with me. And so I lived with her in her studio apartment in the Upper East Side for two months when I was at the Ailey School or the Ailey Summer Intensive. And then when I decided to stay and extend the program, and I met a friend, Valentina, at the Ailey School. She was doing independent study program and so she was like, let's find an apartment together. And she really was like the leader in that. I was like, okay, sure, let's do it. I don't know how to find an apartment. And she, her budget and my budget were very different, which provided challenges, but I think we both wanted this, we both wanted similar things. And actually I was gonna live with my friend Lee, he was moving down from Boston and Val was gonna live with her friend Crystal who was still in California who was also going to the Ailey School but both of our potential roommates were out of town. So we said, let's look for a place together. We can look for two bedrooms, one four bedroom, la di da. And she led the charge for that. And then one day, I remember this so clearly, it was, I just finished a couple of classes at A-Lead. They weren't great, you know, like for all the dancers listening, you always have those classes where your leg just didn't get as high or you didn't go as fast. And it just wasn't good. Like everything was just a little off and not quite like in the pocket that makes us feel like, it's it, you know? And so I came out of like those that morning of like not so great classes then Lee calls me and was like Jessica I just got a job in Boston so I'm not moving to New York anymore. Oh my god and it was just such a low moment for me and I had decided in that moment I was like okay okay. So do I wanna stay in New York? Or was this outside forces telling me to stay? What do I want to do? And I decided in that moment, I was like, I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm gonna stay in New York. I'm gonna find an apartment and it's gonna be great. And then in that moment, Val called me and she was like, Jessica, I found an apartment that's like eight blocks away from the Ailey school. The only thing is it's only a three bedroom. And I'm like, well, that's great because Lee is not coming anymore. And so me, Crystal and Val moved into my current apartment right now that fall in September. So it just like, it all worked out in that like half hour of time where I was kind of like, I'm living, I'm moving to New York, but I wasn't really committed to it. It was cause like my friends were doing it in a way cause I still didn't know what I wanted. And I was okay with that cause that year off was supposed to be me not knowing and figuring it out. So I didn't really know what I wanted. I was just following the like the currents and then Lee disrupted that.
Jessica Chen
um say he's not coming so then I lost essentially a roommate um and I had to make I had to make that decision for myself in that moment if Val had called me right after Lee I think I'm glad that there was that window where I just had to make a solid decision like be I think it was maybe my first adult decision like just grow up and say you are moving to New York and you are pursuing a professional career as a dancer. And that was like my moment of saying that. And then she called and then we found this amazing apartment and here we are.
Jessica
That's really challenging to have a doubt about something and be waiting for the right time or some kind of sign or moment of clarity. And I think about that all the time. I feel like I'm always waiting for something to feel perfectly right. I think that's part of the perfectionist element of being an artist and a dancer. And it's… Yeah, it's important to sometimes just make a decision and to listen to your intuition and all of that for sure, but also to not have to have it be something that is perfect and the only decision.
Jessica Chen
Right. Yep. Yeah, that's it. I was like, oh, I don't have to stay in New York. I can go anywhere in the world. I can stay in New York. I, you know, who knows what the future is going to bring. And yeah, I think that that's what that was in that moment for me and what's so important as an artist, as an individual. You have to make those you have to make a decision to make a claim. That's why setting goals are a great thing sometimes, but also like identifying dreams and saying something. I'm gonna stay in New York and be a dancer. I'm gonna start my own dance company. I'm going to choreograph a show on Broadway, you know, there's those things and regardless of if they happen or not, hopefully they happen on the way there, the empowerment of saying something like that gives you this like, energy so you're going to be learning and growing on your way there and the end result might not look exactly the same. And so I think I think being open, having an open mindset to it as well. So it's, you know, it's both. You have to be direct and make a decision, but also be open to it looking different. Yeah.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. I think about it a lot with gardening in that you have a seed. First of all, you have to plant it in the right place. If you plant it in the wrong place, it just will never grow. It's not the right climate. So you first have to find the right place for it. And then you plant it and then you need to water it and you need to make sure it has sun and then that's it. You can't control how many tomatoes are going to come from that plant. You can't control if the disease is going to come and
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
it won't and it makes it stop growing. You can't control those things. You just control what you put into it. You can't control. You can like, we have a cucumber for make, we're making cucumbers. We're growing cucumbers and it grows up. It's, it's growing so fast. And so we have it wrapped around. I'm so, I'm so not a planty person, but like wrapped around this, what do you call it? Like it's a wood thing.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. I don't know it. Yeah.
Jessica
and the vines are wrapping up, and you have to teach it how to grow, or also just grow out. And so you can weave it around the little holes in the wooden, I wish I knew what it was called because this is chaos. But you can teach it what direction to grow in, and you can provide supports for it, and you can cut off diseased leaves, and you can do those things, but you can't control.
Jessica Chen
Mmm.
Jessica
You can't say I want five cucumbers and I want them tomorrow. You can only plant it and water it and try to take care of it and then you don't know what's gonna happen from there.
Jessica Chen
Right.
Jessica Chen
Wild. That's so true in your career and that's so true if you're taking care and nurturing anything like be it a dream, be it a plant, be it another human, a partner, you know everything yourself. Yeah, I love that.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. And that's why I'm in a point right now where I don't know exactly where I wanna be as I've talked to you about. And so to hear you say that you were pulled and called to this place, which was New York at the time and still, but back then, and you said, okay, am I going to give it a go? You weren't picking some arbitrary place. You had a...
Jessica Chen
Mm. Yeah.
Jessica
inclination towards this location because of where it was and what opportunities you would have from it and probably also just an energy that you were craving after being in California perhaps, whatever it was, and you followed through with it and it's it has worked out I would say.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, it has. Yeah.
Jessica
Yeah. So after you made that decision, what did life look like? Were there any obstacles and hurdles? And, and let's get to the point where you created your own company.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, oh boy. So I made that decision. We booked this apartment eight blocks away from the Ailey school. We were all in our early 20s and all our friends were Ailey school friends. So I was saying that Bao, my roommate, she worked for JPMorgan Chase for two amazing savings account built up and I had no money. I had like $823 when I moved to New York because I spent all my money paying for the Ailey tuition and I was like oh god I have no money what do I do and Faith my dance coach who I stayed with she was like oh you know… There's a couple of restaurants that are part of this restaurant chain that Niamaya, who you know, works for one of them so I can see if we can get you a job. I got a job at Niamaya's sister restaurant and this place called El Centro and it was great. I mean, waiting tables is not always...the most inspiring form of job. But for me, it was diagonally across the Ailey School, like seven blocks away from my apartment. It was this tiny little Mexican restaurant still open. And we were really busy, so we made good money. And all of the staff were aspiring actors and singers and costume designers and makeup artists and writers and actors. It was just this whole community. I do miss those times because we were all, no idea what we were doing, knew nobody in the industry. We were just starting off in pure passion excitement for what's to come and frustration that I wasn't here already but now when I think back on it I was like oh it was such a great time to just to I think what New York for me is always been is that it has something for everybody you know I have a friend that said something like you can move to New York and find somebody else that gets you, you know, and you whoever you are, you know, it might take some time and there's a lot of us here in New York, but there is like so much here that like you can find what you're interested in and a whole community of those people that are interested in that. So yeah, that was great. And I like put myself on a really strict budget. I like wrote it down. This is before apps that could help you do that. I had a little booklet that I would write. My monthly expenses is how much I spend on groceries and is how much I spend on dance shoes and dance clothes. Those are my expenses, rent, utilities, dance stuff, and food. But I worked in a restaurant, so they gave us food. That helped with the expenses.So that was the first few years of my New York life. And I was not trained a hip hop dancer in college or I did a little bit of it in high school I'd say, but I did a little bit of it in college. But I do learn really fast. So I found a friend of mine who I did a show with she was like oh I'm part of this hip-hop company and we're looking for another dancer do you want to come to rehearsal and check it out and sure so I went and it was like a perfect fit so I started dancing with live coach the name of the company Tori is our choreographer and so I and Tori would book us jobs. So I never needed an agent. So he would just choreographing for little mama. And so, Danae, Amanda, Jessica and Hailey are gonna go to Japan and perform with her. And oh, I'm choreographing a music video for Semi-Precious Weapons. And all of us are gonna come and we're just gonna like, you know, have the whole day at this factory in Brooklyn. So that was really fun and it really gave me another window into a whole other industry and way of moving that I hadn't been exposed to. And so I did that and I also danced for a couple of small modern dance companies as well. So I did hip-hop and modern dance. Most of the companies I danced with I met through my mentor and Horton teacher, Earl Mosley. He was my Horton teacher at Ailey. Then I did his summer intensive for two summers and made a lot of connections with choreographers that he brought in for the summer intensive. And I ended wound up dancing for a couple of them. And so that was my life. And then I just, I've always choreographed. When I was in high school and in college, I did a young choreographers festival where one of my professors mentored me. And so around the time when I was working with Mosley, I started choreographing as well. And I created a trio for like student choreography showcase. And he encouraged me to submit that trio for New York festivals. And so that's what I did. And The Dumbo Dance Festival was the first festival I got into. And they ask you your program information, like what's your name, all the information about the piece, and then what's your company's name and company bio. And I thought, well, I don't have a company. I don't wanna start a company. That's too much responsibility. But I decided, I was like, okay, well, if I want to keep choreographing, then I guess I suppose it would make sense to have a platform in which I present my work. Because in all the festivals they ask like, who's your what's your company? And so I'm like, okay, it'll be like, you know, like my pen name, my choreography name. So I thought about it quite a bit. And it was like around the time where the choreographers name was no longer the only form of the only way of identifying a dance company because you know 80s 90s it was like Martha Graham creates the Martha Graham dance company Alvin Ailey creates the Alvin Ailey American dance company Paul Taylor David Parsons the list goes on but then but then companies like complexions showed up where Desmond and Dwight, their names are not in it. It was a concept. And so I thought, I don't want it to be Jessica Chen Dance Project or Dance Company. That seems long, a long thing to say. And I don't want it to be about me, even though it's my platform. So I'm contradicting myself, but I still I don't. And so there are all these questions I asked and all these thoughts that I had and I landed on J Chen project because it is my work and so my identity should be in there and so by taking the rest of my first name out, it felt a little more removed than me. So J Chen, okay. So there's the artist, J Chen and then Jessica, I still get to be me. And then I've always been interested in multi-disciplinary work. So, and I had an inkling maybe an intuition that I would do, I would, you know, collaborate with musicians or visual artists and et cetera. So I decided to call it Projects so that it kind of kept it open. Yeah. And I started it in 2008 when I got into that Dumbledance Festival and performed my works under that title until 2017 when we became an official nonprofit. And so I still, the works are still performed under this platform, but it's now a whole nonprofit organization entity. We have a board and board meetings. And yesterday, I submitted our grant proposal for the New York State Council on the Arts. We applied for it the first time last year and we got it. And you were with me when I applied for the city grant. So this is the state grant. So yeah, that's how I started J Chen project. And it's been an incredible journey to… It's been a lot of work to kind of cultivate my voice and build an organization. But now kind of on the other side of all of that, it feels I'm really grateful to have this platform and to have this organization that I lead. And that brings, you know, dance and culture and art to New York.
Jessica
Yeah, how did you decide to turn it into the official nonprofit in 2017? What was that reasoning?
Jessica Chen
Yeah, it's such a good question. And it was also another decision point, another, okay, be an adult, Jessica. Do you want this thing to grow? And my answer could have been no, and that is totally fair. No, I don't wanna do this anymore. I wanna do something else. That is totally fair. We can always pivot.
Jessica
Mm. Hehehehehe.
Jessica Chen
But before I make any big decisions, I always kind of like take inventory, I guess, an inventory of where I am, of what is it that I want to do. And so I met a creative producer, Fran Kermser, like a year before, or maybe a year and a half. I did like a self-producing, workshop that she taught for the field, which is a nonprofit organization that is an umbrella. So we were operating as a nonprofit under the field. We had a fiscal sponsorship. So we had gotten grants. There are certain grants that you are not eligible for, but there are certain grants that are still available to you when you're operating under a fiscal sponsorship. So we had that. I took this workshop, loved her. Everything that she kind of laid out for us in the workshop really resonated with me. And then we had a conversation after the workshop and she said, you know, you could think about getting a 501c3. And I was like, oh my God, that's too much. Like who would be my board members? And she, and so she kind of walked me through the basics of it, just to plant a seed. And it was like a no pressure. She was like, just just so you have the information, here you go. And so the seed was planted and I started thinking about it and I started thinking about who I would ask to join the board. So you need three board members in New York State, a minimum of three. And I could be one of them, so I need two others. And so I was just kind of like no pressure, putting it out there. Who would I want on my board? There's no deadline. I'm not committing to this yet. And then shortly after that, I was pulled into my first big commercial theater project. I choreographed this show at the Minetta Lane Theater in West Village, and it turned my world upside down. And I essentially got an email from a general manager saying, I'm working on an off-Broadway production, and I love your work. I would love to collaborate with you on it. Are you interested? And I said, yes, took the meeting, and she explained to me what the project was. And then I said, I am also choreographing for my company, and we have our New York season very close to the premiere. So I have to do both at the same time. So I'm not going to be available like every day, you know, some commercial projects in New York. I think it's different like in New York city, but when you go out of New York city, you're, you're rehearsing all day. It's like, it's not, I can't do something else. Um, and so she's like, no, it's not. It's okay. We'll make the schedule around you and, and dah, dah. Okay, great. Fantastic. So I did that. I choreograph this off-Broadway show called The Portal and also working on my company show that I think it must have premiered like three weeks before we started previews for The Portal. So it was very a lot of, maybe two, I don't know. It was like, it was a lot. And I loved the process. I mean, there were problems, there were other problems because you're not the only artistic leader. That's the biggest thing. And J Chen Project, I have full artistic control. When I do a commercial or musical theater or theater production, I'm not the only director. I'm not the only artistic leader, which can prove challenges, but I'm a natural collaborator. So I really do love conversations with people and collaborating and kind of creating from a very free place. And so that part of it I really love. And also I really love that my only job was to choreograph. I didn't have to market the show. I didn't have to sew the costumes together. I didn't have to edit the music together. You know, like I do everything for J-Chen Project. I have a lot of amazing collaborators, but I'm like in a part of everything. And so that focusing on just the dance making in that show really expanded my own craft. And so I thought, I want to do more of this. And it also kind of pulled me out. It helped me see my work from a different perspective, putting it in a completely different context. It really gave me a whole, like, it just opened my world and I wanted more of that. Because there's one thing where you have a vision, you create this vision and you make it yours. It's another thing when somebody else has a vision and then you connect with that and you go in to help make that vision come together. Those are such different approaches or entryways into the work. And I love both. And so that's when I was doing that, I decided, you know, if I'm gonna do both, I don't wanna lose J-Chem Project. And like the commercial work pays a lot more than what the company pays me. And at that point, the company was paying me zero. So anything would be more. Now I get a fee, but. Yeah, so I was like, I don't want to, you know, cause we live in America and money matters. And so I don't want the money projects to take away from J Chen Project. So how can I make sure, but J Chen Project, I have to do everything and it takes so much of my time and energy. And I just saw it. I was just like, I just see myself leaning more towards commercial stuff and letting J Chen Project slide because they don't have the time. And so that's when I decided I want to do both. And it's going to be really hard and we'll see. But in order to do both, J Chen Project needs to have, it needs to stand on its own two feet more than it is right now. Right now everything is relying on me, even funding. So it needs, this
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
company needs to become an entity and it needs to stand on its own two feet and it needs to be sustainable. I'm not saying it's going to happen overnight, but that's what I'm going to start building towards, the sustainability of the organization. So that's when I picked up the 501c3 conversation again. I was like, first of all, we need to become its own entity.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
And so that's when Fran and I started working on applying for our 501c3 status, which soon we got the following year, which essentially was like our 10 year anniversary as a company, but our first year as a nonprofit. And yeah, it's been really amazing. And I am now coming off of, like this year, as you know, we worked on Cinderella together. And shortly after I worked on a production of Jersey Boys. And then right after I flew to the Bay Area and auditioned for a production of Cabaret that I'm working on for next year. So my commercial theater work is picking up. And at the same time, the company has just received city and state funding, and we're partnering with several really amazing AAPI arts organizations. And so all of that is like building.
Jessica
What would be a dreamy thing to come next for you? How do you, is there a world in which the two can morph together? Like, is there a world in which your company can be the foundation of your commercial work in a sense? Like you bring dancers in, you use them to...
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
pre-pro, I don't know.
Jessica Chen
It naturally happens because the work that I do with my company is not always tied to a specific production, but it will inform, you know, what my choreography and movement and storytelling. And so there's gonna be some of that overlap, but again, like. Like I said before, when I do a commercial theater or musical theater project, I am really thinking of this is a collaboration. If there's a director, music director, costume, there's this whole team and I wanna be a part of that team. I'm not saying, yeah, I just made this show. So I'm gonna put it in this show. I really want to explore something new. It's still me, but it's something that is for that particular project. But it's gonna be me and where I am as an artist, which J Chen Project gives me the space to step outside the box and try new things, try different things. And the two, I think, really are a perfect balance of each other. In the musical theater world, it's about the art and it's about the commercial viability of, you know, we need to get audiences to...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
to get tickets, how do they market that? And so I get to see and witness what it is like as a commercial entity where we need to sell the tickets, you know, there's a certain quota you need to meet. And whereas in the nonprofit world, the idea is that the artistic integrity is the highest priority. And so...
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica Chen
I don't necessarily have to worry about selling tickets, although I naturally do, because I want people to experience it. So I naturally have always been thinking about the audience and how to make sure that people do come and see the work so that it can be shared. And it can be inclusive, and that's part of the inclusivity. But I think they both inform each other. Right before we worked together for Cinderella, I premiered a show with my company called AAPI Heroes, Myths and Legends. And it is, in that show, there are several pieces that I've choreographed over throughout the years. But the concept of the show was to showcase AAPIs, Asian American Pacific Islanders, stories in an empowered way and to see AAPI individuals as heroes, empowered in uplifting. And it completely sold out. Like our run was completely sold out.
Jessica
Mm.
Jessica Chen
which is great and also for me as a director and producer, choreographer, I wish it wasn't because I got messages from people like, oh my God, I didn’t get tickets, da da, and that to me hurts, so I'm like, oh, I wish we could have one more show so you can come or it feels great that we're completely sold out, but we had a wait list and we had to create a policy, come at noon or like, you can put your name on the wait list by this time and then we'll release the tickets if people don't claim them. And it's all super exciting, but in the end for me, what I think about is like people who want to see the show won't get to see the show. So that was what I experienced right before Cinderella. And while, and because it received such great audience feedback and commercially it was viable because we sold out the whole show and we got some amazing press. Oh my God, some of the things that the press said, we're just, it was so, it was just so heartwarming to hear and read. We are right now searching for, we're right now in the production in like the process of green lighting it for an ongoing one, which then, you know, whoever wants to see it, they can come and see it. So that's a really exciting project. That's a point where my nonprofit world and my commercial world have merged so that I created this work for the community and it has enough of an audience that we are working towards making this an ongoing run. It would be like a once a month kind of situation. But that's the dream. That I didn't realize was my dream, but that was that it's the dream to have something that's like continuous. And yeah, and we are, you know, we're talking different ways of like, if I'm out of town for another project,
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica Chen
somebody will, my associate artist director will then step up to do the curtain speech and then, you know, we'll have like, we'll have to plan out like how, how it works and how we can be flexible within how things can change. I can add pieces in, we'll have a guest artist slot, because in the show we had two guest performers come, an actor and a singer. Joy Chen who acted in the piece I created about Anna Mae Wong and Supernova Ellie Kim who's this amazing musician Sang her song and so there's like pockets where we can amplify folks in other industries that in that That can like uplift the entire community.
Jessica
It's incredible. You are so inspiring to me when, so we only worked together for a month at the GEVA Theater Center. And we were randomly just put in a hotel together without anyone else in the cast and team. And it ended up being so lovely. It could have gone one of two ways. Like if we didn't really get along and then we had to drive together every day and.
Jessica Chen
That's right.
Jessica
almost see each other at breakfast. Oh, goodness. Fortunately, we ended up having an amazing time and amazing conversations together. And I feel like you really helped reconnect me to my own artistry. Because in our industry and in this country, it's so easy to just focus on are you getting paid to do your work?
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
And that feels like that's the end all be all. And in some ways it has to be because you need to support yourself. And if you can support yourself doing what you love to do, it's a dream. And it's not always the case. And hearing you talk about your company and your choreography and everything you're creating helps me reconnect with the things that I know about my own self and what I've kind of suppressed or ignored in terms of what I long to create, both as a performer and a creative and a writer and a teacher. And yeah, I feel very, very lucky that our paths crossed in that way. We got to work together and then go back to the hotel and sit by the river and chat together. And yeah, I'm so excited to know you and to keep...
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
following along on your journey. And I love what you do. I love working with you.
Jessica Chen
Thanks, the feeling is mutual. It was really, yeah, such a blessing to get along so well. And then I think we worked together really well too and supported each other in different ways. So yeah, it was really incredible. And I think it's true that as artists, when you start to do what you love,
your career and you get paid for it, it complicates things. So whatever we can do to stay connected to why we do what we do and what is it that we want to do, it's so important and that's really what J Chen Project has done for me and why I continue to pour so much into that because it gives me a safe incubator to explore my artistic voice, it's not as much of a pressure cooker situation. I mean, sometimes there are, you know, when we have premieres and yeah, there definitely are, but I still have a pocket of that individual artist's exploration. And even if I didn't have J Chen Project, you know, there's like other ways to kind of have that be a part of your repertoire. Take yourself on artist dates and take a break if you need to
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
so that you can continue to be inspired when you're being paid to be inspired and when you're not being paid to be inspired. Just such a weird thing to be paid. Like this is such a weird thing that my job is to create stories and put them on stage. It's amazing. But when we get to really-
Jessica
Mm. Yeah.
Jessica Chen
you know, when we get to really do our passion and we make a living doing that, that's wild to me. How is this my career? I don't know why, it's just wild.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
Yeah, it is. Well, I want to also just touch briefly back on how you use the word safe to describe what you got to explore and create with J-Chen Project. And it's a word that I've been coming back to again and again, because I felt like dance and my body and my expression, those were safe zones when I was younger. And they turned into something that was dangerous, both because I wasn't emotionally supported anymore and because I was physically pushing my body in ways I shouldn't have. And of course, like having had a sexual assault at the hands of a professor at my school, I mean, literal danger there. So there's so much for me that became unsafe in my body, in my mind, in my emotions, in my expression, in my artistry, in my creativity, in dance. And I feel like I am still reckoning with that. And that's a huge reason that I believe it took me seven years to start this podcast. And I'm still hesitant to share my writing. And I feel petrified to reenter a performance space, because there were so many zones where, yes, it was explicitly dangerous, but also less extreme versions of that where you just don't feel supported and you don't get positive reinforcement. And I believe that art, I've talked about this before, but you as an artist are meant to be inspired, take in the world, take in your emotions and do something with that and release it back out into the world. And if we are being
overpowered or unheard or disembodied in some way or capacity, then how are we supposed to do that and how can we feel like we're giving something back into the world? And as artists, it is such a blessing to get to do what we do and have the emotional and visceral responses that we do to the world, but it's also very hard to feel as deeply and connect as deeply as we do. So if we're not being supported, how are we going to put that back? So when you said the word that J Chen Project was a safe incubator, you used that phrase that really touched me. And I'm curious how your experience, what your experience has been like in that regard, both across
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
J Chen project and your commercial work and everything in between.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, oh my god, there's... I'm so sorry that happened to you Jess. It's like...
Jessica
Thank you.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, I believe that times are changing, that our industry is shifting. I'll talk about artistic vision safety. You know, when I, I wanna work with dancers I can be 100% myself with and collaborators where that I just click with right away, like we did. That is safe because I don't have to worry about what I look like or if I said something stupid or wrong. I want to be safe to be wrong. And one of the directors I worked with recently, he said, the best idea wins. And I might not have the best idea. And I love it's like a safe space. We are artists and we...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Are discovering unknown or discovering worlds that have not been have not been highlighted. So we're gonna make mistakes not and they're not even mistakes where we just get to be free. Freedom in that in self-expression and creative process. And so safety in terms of like creative process safety, that has always been instilled in my company. Because that's what I crave. I want everybody part of the process to want to be there and to feel heard and seen and to work together as a team. And that could be kind of tricky sometimes because I can, as a director, I think it's gonna be this way. And then maybe a dancer thinks it's the another way, but they're gonna have to listen to me. But of course I'm gonna hear you. And if I see what you see as a dancer and it aligns with my vision, then yeah, of course I'm gonna do it. And then it'll go with it. As a director, I do have to make those tough choices. So there's that kind of like freedom, you know, play is always a part of it.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
everybody's opinions is always respected for me. It's part of my rules of engagement in my company. So there's that safety. Physical safety is a big deal. I'm also a gyrotonic instructor and I work with clients privately who have broken their bodies, have done crazy crazy, terrible things and they need to put themselves back together. And so the ways in which we move as dancers and that we're being asked to move, I always want dancers to communicate with me if something doesn't feel physically right, if it's something too hard. I had a dancer that didn't tell me but told my associate that they felt that they weren't a good fit for the company anymore because they were not as young and that I prefer younger dancers. But it's not actually true. I really love dancers that have a strong voice and sometimes my movement is very physical. But there's also, because it needs to engage the audience and it's an art form that both entertains as well as like inspires, right? So there's that element to it. But if you're a dancer and you feel like this just doesn't feel right or my knees are gonna die or this and that, I will always listen. But also as dancers, like we, our physical body is part of our artistry. So I am gonna continue to push our physicality and stuff, but as a collaboration and a conversation. So, yeah. Physical safety is so important. Anatomy to me is like really, really important. And it's not always about how high your leg can go. It's about what that leg is saying, you know, when it goes high. So yeah, so there's that. And I think like emotional and sexual, I mean, I've had,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
people say things to me in my career that are so inappropriate. And I think at the start of my career, I didn't say things, I would just laugh it off and hope that I would take a stand if somebody crossed the line. And I was lucky that people didn't cross.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
it too far, but people did cross the line and it was always a hard thing to navigate that, you know, and I hope that that's changing. Although people that have said and done things to me are still working and I don't know what to do about that. Like I don't know if I should...
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jessica Chen
give them a call and be like, hey, are you still doing this and saying this stuff? Or have you learned and have you evolved? And I was just like unfortunate to come across you during a bad time in your life. Like, I don't wanna, it's, you know, I think there has to be a next evolution of cancel culture because there are people that I know in my history that did not treat me appropriately and like,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
physically and verbally who are still working. And they have, I have moved on from them, but as an aspiring leader of our industry, do I engage and make sure? And how do I do that? I haven't talked to this person in years. Do I just call them up and be like, hey, are you still trying to like...
Jessica
Hmm. Right.
Jessica Chen
hit on students, you know, what's happening. Yeah, I don't know. I think that there needs to be a conversation around that. Cause I do think that to have the, to continue the conversation, we need to, we need to like have room for a conversation, you know, and growth. And so, yeah. But then at the same time, I'm like, I don't want to talk to this person because they, you know what I mean? Like, why do I have to talk to them? I just wanna know. Like, they should post that I've done some, like, I don't know. But also people could say whatever they want and then do something else in their private life too. So I don't know how we hold people accountable for their actions.
Jessica
Yeah. That was the original idea of this podcast actually was that I had this experience with this professor. They were still working. I got them, I came forward like a year and a half after I graduated, I came forward to the school and they ended up firing him. This is the very short version. And that was in 2018.
Jessica Chen
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica
And in like 2021, I think I saw that he was still working at other places. Um, and so I had sent my story that I wrote about what happened. I had sent it to a bunch of the places he works at and no one responded to me. And then a year later, I followed back up with some, some of those, it was like colleges and
Jessica Chen
Wow.
Jessica
dance studios and I followed back up because why should that be my responsibility? If I am a survivor of some predator, why is it my job to make sure that he doesn't keep working? That is absurd and I would never and people kept saying to me like, you don't have to do that. You don't have to go forward. You don't have to reach out to people. I'm like, I know I don't have to, but then he's still working.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
So I actually emailed this one place again, and I had gone onto their website. This is the abbreviated version because I don't want to get in. So anyway, I started this podcast because of all these things and how hard it was to talk about and how these people are still working. And the original idea was that we were going to call people out, but that becomes a whole thing legally and obviously professionally, but
Jessica Chen
Hmm.
Jessica
I care less about that now because I feel like if I'm lucky enough to be in this industry and to be able to be pursuing what I want to do, the least I can do is try to use my voice because I feel okay doing it and not everyone will. And I fully understand and respect that completely. And then it evolves because it can't be that. I can't just...
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jessica
have this thing at least at this point of life where I'm calling out people and risking getting sued and whatever it is because we all have people that we need to be called out. So then how it evolved into what it became is just that we all have these really incredible, beautiful, complex, heartbreaking stories. And yet when we get into conversations with other artists, it's about, oh, what job did you book next?
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
So let's talk about what we've actually experienced in an attempt to number one, have more connection and communication with each other. And then also how can that change our industry and therefore change the world that we live in by being more compassionate and empathetic and vulnerable, and then not needing to put as many guards up, which leads to lots of complex issues.
Jessica Chen
Hmm.
Jessica
But all that to say it is very complicated to figure out what to do in those situations and where does the line between being honest and expressive and voicing your concerns so that other people don't suffer like you suffered. And then also saying, well, it's not my responsibility and I had to deal with that person and that experience. Why would I have to feel obligated to do it again? It's a fine line and one that I'm still discovering, definitely.
Jessica Chen
I think for me, I don't know if this is the right decision, the right, I may not work for everybody, but I've always been, I think the reason why I can see, when I reflect at my career, there were several points where it felt like I was being non-committal. I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this, kind of, sort of, sometimes. And I think it's because I never wanted to be stuck in a position where I had to have somebody... I didn't want to engage with gatekeepers in a way that was... that they had the control and the power. And I don't know if I did that subconsciously or...consciously or whatever, but in my 20s, I did have a strong, I did have boundaries, like really strong boundaries. So if somebody crossed the line, I just cut them out and I just like moved on. So I think it also probably cost me jobs. And probably why I stayed as my serving job longer than I needed to, you know, because I didn't ever want the fact that my art was my career and what was giving me the living, the money, the money to buy food and clothes and pay rent to, oh sorry, I didn't ever want that to have full power over me and the decisions I made. And so I was lucky that I didn't, there were certain, there were instances in my career and throughout my 20s and 30s that I, that were not great. And men who are attempting to abuse their power. But I also, because I always had like one foot in one industry and one foot in another industry, I would just kind of like,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
bounce back and forth. Like, oh yeah, this person is hitting on me and is like, touching my leg. And okay, so I'm just not going to go to hip hop parties for like the next little bit. Oh, okay, I'm working in a theater and the director asks me to like walk around in my underwear. And so I'm gonna, no, I'm gonna say, no, that's not, don't say that to me. And then they never said anything like that again to me. But I had to say that, you know. But I was also at a point in my career where I thought, oh, I could just laugh this off. They're obviously joking. I'm not gonna do that. They don't think that I would do that. Or I hope not, but I don't really care what they think. But I'm obviously not gonna do that. And, but I can just move on to the next part of our conversation, or I can stop it and say something right now. And that was a point in my career where I had mentees and I had been working with college students that are just entering the industry. So I was in touch with the next generation. I was no longer the next generation. So I decided, no, I'm gonna say something because if you say that to me, what stops you from saying something or doing something even worse to somebody 10 years younger than me that is waiting for their first break. So I said something, I could have probably made it a bigger deal now, now like years later, I maybe would have had a whole conversation about that comment, but in that moment where I was in my career, I just said no, and I said to not say that stuff, and I said that it was inappropriate. Like I said, statements.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Whereas now I'd be like, well, let's dig into that. I don't think that you should say things like that to me. What makes you think you should say that to me? And how do you think that this is gonna benefit our production and our work environment and how I create as an artist? You're hiring me to be a leader and you're treating me like a subordinate.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, I would have a lot more words to say. You have more words to say in your career. So I was lucky that I like, I just, I think it's a power thing. I never, I never let full control go. So I was lucky. But, and then I either just avoided the situation.
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica Chen
i.e. not go to industry networking events to avoid that individual, which then probably cost me jobs. Maybe I will be on tour with an artist right now. But that's okay, because I am happy where I am. So it kind of helped me navigate, oh, I don't want to talk to this individual. Oh, I don't want to do this. Oh, da da.And so in that way, those outside forces really did influence my decision making for better or for worse. And so I don't know if there's somebody that was focused on one genre and one industry, I think it's harder because you have to see that person again and again and again, and they hold power and they're gatekeepers. So.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, I think it's part of the reason why I bounced around different industries. But, and so I'm, I'm lucky that I, I have like these two careers because I bounced around different industry, but it could have gone really different, you know, cause you do need to focus. You can't be one foot in, one foot out. And I kind of did that in my twenties, but I, I still landed where, where I did it. So I'm very grateful. Um,
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
but it's really, we need more respect for each other. And that is not respectful when you treat, it doesn't, I don't care, like who you are and who that other individual is, like we always have to lead with respect for each other.
Jessica
And it's not even just doing something inappropriate. It's also how you speak to people and the kind of environment that you're establishing for your cast and your creative team members and whoever you're working with. Because if you were making art, there's no need to be short with people or rude to people or everyone's trying their best.
Jessica Chen
Ciao!
Jessica
everyone's trying their best. And we might not all be the perfect matches for each other. You might not be the best person for the job for sure, for sure. But that's also part of navigating this industry. And also just to circle back to what you were saying about how you were one foot in and one foot out and hopping around to different industries. I really relate to that because I still feel like I'm one foot.
Jessica Chen
Everyone's trying their best.
Jessica Chen
Right.
Jessica
I just dip my toe into this, dip my toe into that because I put everything that I was and all of my energy into dance for my whole life and it really broke me and I was burnt. And I'm still unraveling from that years later. And I do think that stepping away from it because of how hurt I was, did allow me to understand all of these other parts of myself that I had never allowed myself to be curious about because I was so hyper-focused with dance. Like when I was really, really little, I wanted to be on TV shows and I wanted to be on American Idol and all these things. But first of all, I didn't know that was a real thing you could do with your life. And I was also so devoted to dance and that was the thing I did and it was the thing I was good at and it was the thing I loved. And I did love it so much.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm
Jessica
but it wasn't until it hurt me. And it wasn't even, and this is another thing that I've come to terms with, dance never hurt me. The people who were controlling how I danced and what I was doing and giving me grades and things like that, they are the ones who hurt me. I always loved dance and I always loved performing. It just became something that, oh, when you get a...
Jessica Chen
Mmm. Yeah.
Jessica
B in performing, like as a grade, when it's the thing that you love and most identify with and it's what you wanna do with your life. And then you go and you're an A plus student and you get a B in performance, you completely question everything. Because these are the people who in theory know what's going on and have been in the industry and know, but they don't actually, a lot of people don't actually know what is really going on in the industry now who are working in those kinds of programs. And that's why it's so important to have leaders like you and I will say leaders like me in positions to have kind and supportive and safe environments to explore and play in.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's ego for me. Like, power, power and ego. Of course, it feels good to have power. So I'm not going to dis power too much. But it's when you're when you take power from somebody else, that's when you cross the line.
Jessica
because we've seen enough of the opposite.
Jessica Chen
You can feel your own power and that's that feels great But yeah power and ego Just is not, it's not necessary. And as a dancer, it does take so much of that focus, because we're athletes, you know, like when you, like a basketball player, an NBA player, a football player, like they're like monitoring what they're eating and how they're working out, you're athletes. So...We have to, in a way, in a sense, be that fully committed, but because we're also artists and it is what we love and what we like, wanna create, and we're so vulnerable in it. That's what it is. Like the vulnerability in dance, it associated with the athleticism in dance make dancers in the dance industry such a, such a such a precious thing to take care of, you know, because we do need to train. Like I've been going to the gym every day and I feel my muscles a little sore. And I was like, oh, I remember my 20s when I was at the Ailey school, I was sore all the time. And with gyro, gyrotonic, it's more like, we're gonna feel good and feel free, you know, open our body and feel good. And that's great. But I also...
miss that like physicality, like I'm just gonna like push through. I don't want to break my body anymore. I understand my body better, but feeling sore because I worked out this muscle really hard. That's also part of our like animal like human instinct too. And that's the part where like as a dancer to be fully in that world and be fully immersed is sometimes necessary.
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica
Hmm.
Jessica Chen
But when the leaders and the facilitators of that training have a bad relationship with power and ego, then they can take advantage of you. And that is what we need to heal and fix because you can have that training and that discipline and that full immersion without that manipulation and ego. What if we lived in a world when we were all rooting for each other to be the best versions of ourself? What would happen? Would it all go wrong? Is that a bad thing? I don't understand. What would happen if we were just rooting for each other? I don't need to help you be that way, but I'm rooting for you. I don't need to like you know, work with you or for you or like do it for you, but I'm rooting for you. And if I'm your teacher, then I'm going to impart my knowledge so that you can be the best version of yourself. And that's it. That's that's the relationship because I'm rooting for you. It's not because I need you to be great, but I want us all to be the best versions of ourselves and myself included. So how?
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Hello world, like can we do that? Because what's the harm in that? Because the best version of myself is not gonna want to take your power. Because if I want to take your power, I am not the best version of myself. Because I don't need your power, I have my own power.
Jessica
And that's what I felt immediately when I worked with you because we did auditions together in New York at Ripley. And I remember immediately loving your energy because I could just feel that you were a human in an industry where that is sometimes.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
um seen as a weakness or not celebrated necessarily like we come in with our acts on and I'm this and I am that and this is what I do and who I and to have you come in and just be a human and you're like this is the choreography do your best have fun yeah any questions
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica Chen
Thank you for being here. You know, and it hasn't been easy. I've been told by people, don't be too excited. Don't get too fangirly. Cause when I see an artist that I love, I don't care if you're auditioning for me. I don't care if you're in music or you're in film or I can appreciate it. If I see somebody that I'm completely inspired by, I'm gonna tell them. But I've been told by people like, don't be too excited. Don't...
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica Chen
be too fangirly? I'm like, why? Because they need to know if they've impacted one individual, you know? Like it's crazy. But because it's the face, like, oh, I, I need to show that I'm a leader in this industry. Like, what? Who's a leader? I don't understand that.
Jessica
a hundred percent. It reminded.
Jessica
so with you. I think about that all the time. And I can't help when I'm sitting behind the table and seeing someone perform and they're putting their heart and soul into it. And we're sitting and seeing them for 45 seconds that they've been prepping this for days or weeks or really their lifetime because everything is building up to every audition you do all your training all your experience. I want to fucking celebrate you. I want to shower you with my attention and my like positive reinforcement. I'm the same exact way. I'm like, what are we? What's the act that we're trying to put on? What's the act? It's it is ego. It's 100% ego. And it reminds me of this is a little bit of a tangent. But when I first decided to speak publicly about my story about my sexual assault.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
I was on the Fiddler tour and we just had this HR meeting and they were, I don't know, it was an hour or whatever it was. And I remember going up to the HR person who was just here for like one hour and I said to her, if I talk about this thing that happened to me, is it going to get me in any trouble? And she's like, what?
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
And she's like, does it have something to do with this tour? No, no, absolutely not. It was in college, it was years ago. And the fact that I was so worried about saying a truth that actually happened to me out of fear that I would get in trouble with my job because I would be someone who was then maybe difficult or too confident in their voice or whatever it was, that...
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
I remember that so clearly and I think that I cried a little bit. I think I cried a little bit when I talked to that HR person because I was like maybe officially coming to terms with the fact that I was going to say something publicly. But there have been so many times in my life where I have said something publicly and then been either told by someone else that I shouldn't have said that publicly or whatever, you know,
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
abuser in what I thought about this situation. And yeah, I was told by people I really trust not to comment on things that I really didn't have to comment on. And I was like, wait a second, but that's, I understand the fear and you're trying to protect me because you've seen the industry and you know what happens to people who use their voice. You're not wrong. But I'm just saying that if we remain afraid, then those people remain in power. And I haven't done anything.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.Right, right, right.
Jessica
I mean, I do think it's enormous to post a story. I do think that's extremely brave that I did that. I'm very proud of myself for doing that. And for like the wonderful things actually that have come from it, including other people who have approached me and said, hey, that I had that experience too with that person. Or hey, I had a similar experience with another person. So it was definitely the right thing for me to do. It's terrifying, but I do believe that there are enough of us who are on the same wavelength and we are silenced and afraid to use our voices and to say that we don't think that something is right because we are afraid of losing the few jobs that we are offered. We want to remain as neutral as possible so that we can work with as many different people as possible, but just like with...
Jessica Chen
Mm.
Jessica
with acting, for example, you want to have a point of view. You want to go in making decisions, knowing who this character is, knowing what you're trying to say. And the more you're trying to be neutral and appeal to everybody, the less successful you're going to end up being.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
And I think that it's not like you have to speak out. It's not that you have to say anything you don't want to say. It's more that there needs to be an environment where if you needed to say something, it would be okay. Or if you wanted to say something, it would be okay. And you would feel supported.
Jessica Chen
Right. Yeah, that's true. Yep, exactly. The culture. And I do think that it's shifting. And I hope that it continues to stay productive in its evolution.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, because it's over. That time, it's over. It's not OK. It never was OK. We let it happen for too long. And the power has shifted. And it doesn't mean I feel like our industry is shifting and we're calling for inclusion and diversity.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
And I also want the conversation to stay inclusive, just to stay open. And we're growing. And we all are individuals. Basically we want to feel safe in what we do and we want to feel that we're not being scapegoated or taken advantage of and that we have a voice and it is valued in that there, it's just not okay to use your power for abuse in any circumstance. Go figure that shit out. Seriously, like if you have something you have to figure out, go figure it out and don't involve other people that is gonna like harm. Do no harm.
Jessica
Yeah. And the issue is that if no one's saying anything to these people, then they don't have to change. So that's the complicated thing, but then you're putting yourself on the line.
Jessica Chen
or try or try to.
Jessica Chen
Right. Or they don't even know, they don't even know that they have to change. They're like, what? I was doing fine. No, no, you weren't. You were not. That was, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean? And I, yeah, so there's a part of me that does wanna like give a call to these folks that have put not so great memories in my...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
like to be like, did you know that was wrong? That was wrong. You know that, right? I hope you know that. Cause if you don't, that's why I'm calling you, to tell you that was wrong, do not do that. You want to talk about why that was wrong, I will give you 25 minutes and I'll tell you why. And then you go pick up a book and read more.
Jessica
Yeah.
Jessica
Yeah, it's interesting too because within our industry, first of all, as dancers, there's so many boundaries that are messy because of the nature of dance. We had teachers touching us, correcting us, lift your elbow, tuck in your... Whatever. And what other industry...
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Yeah. Right.
Jessica
is it okay for teachers to touch students, right? Like just that alone is so bizarre. And then you have like, with acting, you're talking about emotions and your vulnerabilities and your life experiences. There's so much that is just innately and inherently messy and muddled in this industry. And so we...
Jessica Chen
I had a friend, an actor friend, sorry to cut you off, that was like, he was in the normal heart and his character died. And he was like, in my funeral, I was like, Frank, in your character's funeral, because we were like really like such good friends at the time and it was me, Frank and Dennis, Dennis is a singer and Dennis and I were like, oh, can we become extras? Like, cause he's doing this huge musical, I mean musical, he's doing this huge movie amazing. And he was like, Yeah, maybe you guys can come to my funeral. I'm like, Frank, your character's funeral, you're not having a funeral, your character's having a funeral. And so that like, divide between, like, make believe and reality is can be muddy and murky.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. And also that translates to how there are these murky boundaries within how we talk to each other and treat each other on a professional level. Like usually in companies or something, you have, you know, an annual review and you can or an anonymous, I don't know, complaint to the H. I mean, who are you? Those, those lines are non-existent a lot of the time. So it does become complicated. If you do have an issue, is it going to get back to the person that you're having the issue with? Or are they even going to have a way for you to I mean, they didn't have that at all in school. By any means, there was this whole thing where the short version is that there is a issue with
Jessica Chen
Uh-huh.
Jessica
people taking a certain kind of drug to lose weight, basically. And a teacher was told about it and then like the students were confronted about it as if they did something wrong. Not like, Hey, there was, was there, is there an issue going on that's making you think you have to do these things? It was like shame based and blaming. So yeah.
Jessica Chen
Right.
Jessica Chen
What do you think you need to heal from your past? Or is it a continuous, like you're always healing?
Jessica
I...
Jessica Chen
or this podcast.
Jessica
Yeah, this podcast is a huge part of it because I still hold so much anger and pain from my experience. And then on top of that is the annoyance and frustration about having that anger and pain. And I do believe that with this podcast, I'm having conversations I've been having
Jessica Chen
Mm.
Jessica
behind closed doors for years, but conversations that I think are important to start evolving how we connect to each other and treat each other. And I think that in, like all I wanted to do my whole life was perform. And then it became something so negative. And I've had little instances where I've been able to perform after college, like the main one being that I did the Fiddler on the Roof tour.
Jessica Chen
Hmm.
Jessica
And I was a swing, so I wasn't performing every day, but I performed a lot and that was so exciting and fun and helped remind me of the joy of performance. And in my time away from dance, I found writing and acting and singing. And when I did Fiddler, I was able to bring more of those together because I was singing every day and I was acting and understudying.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
acting roles and I actually had like I swung a couple acting roles too. And then I got to do Dance Captain which eventually led to Assistant Choreographer which eventually led to Assistant Director and Associate Director and in other productions. So I think that in my heart of hearts I need to keep writing, I need to keep processing and I've written probably like 60 pages typed a month for the past like eight years. So I have like a shit ton of writing that I want to share, but I don't know exactly how to share it or why I'm sharing it. But I know in my intuition, in my deepest part of myself, I know that I wanna share it and I'm afraid to. Additionally, I know that I deeply miss performing.
Jessica Chen
Wow.
Jessica
I know that I don't want to go back into the way that I was doing it before in the grind where like, it's the only thing that matters and I'll sacrifice my well-being. I'm not doing that ever again. I got too hurt from it and I don't believe we have to do that. So I'm trying to keep building my coaching and teaching business because I love that. I love helping other artists. I love talking about their careers and their lives and giving them...
Jessica Chen
Mm.
Jessica
help with their dance auditions and their acting auditions and all of that. So fulfilling. I love it so much. So I love building that. And I think that that's less scary for me than thinking about getting back into performing because I don't see a safe path because I'm so afraid to get hurt again, to have someone take advantage of me again. And perhaps that's me underestimating.
Jessica Chen
Mm.
Jessica
how much healing I've already done and how much more I use my voice and how much power I have, like how much more empowered I am at this point in my life. I think it's one of those things where.
Jessica
I am never going to be satisfied unless I try it again, but I need to try it in a different way.
Jessica
And I don't know what that looks like. I think that's where I'm held back, but I know for sure that this podcast is one step in the right direction and that sharing more of my writing will certainly be more steps in the right direction. And I've just been trying to do things for fun. Like I have been singing more just for fun and I, I'm kind of floating around right now, but I'm as soon as I decided where I'm going to plant.
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm. Nice.
Jessica
my first thing will be to sign up for an acting class again because I miss it. And I feel really, I basically I'm like, what is the most scary thing that I can imagine doing for myself like emotionally? And that I'm gonna try to do that. Like it was this podcast, I was like, oh my gosh, how much longer are you just gonna talk about this shit, Jessie girl, come on, come on. I did it, I did it.
Jessica Chen
Mm. And you did it. And that's great.
Jessica Chen
So performing wise, do you feel you get the same acting, singing and dancing? Like are you thinking performing wise as actor that can fulfill you the same or in similar as when you performed as a dancer?
Jessica
That's a great question.
Jessica
I think that I'm no longer willing to do anything with my physical body that I don't want to do. And that would make being a professional dancer very challenging.
Jessica Chen
Hahahaha. We're like Jess, you're gonna do a Chaine turn to the floor and you're like, I don't feel like going to the floor today.
Jessica
Hahaha. Yeah. Exactly.
Jessica Chen
My body does not feel connected to the floor today, so I am not going to do that. Okay, no problem.
Jessica
Yeah, I'm just not really in the place to do a Chaine right now.
Jessica
And I think that I don't know if that will change over time. And if I re-enter the performance space in a way that I feel supported, perhaps I could feel different. Like when you, so this is actually a biggie. When you said that you were doing cabaret, you're choreographing cabaret, this was probably one or two weeks into Cinderella, you told me that you were doing this. And I immediately said to you, Oh, when are the auditions? I'm gonna come audition for you. And I shocked myself by saying that because I haven't been to an audition like that since I auditioned for Fiddler in 2019. So the fact that I was immediately drawn to coming to work with you was such a reminder that it's okay to want to feel safe and supported.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.100%.
Jessica
in what you're doing, especially when you're in the process of healing from things.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, it's who you choose to work with too. I'm kind of starting off in the theater world, so I don't know that many actors and singers, but I hope that I build the reputation that, or I'm building a reputation that when I'm on the bill for a production, people are like, I'm gonna go because I wanna work with Jessica, and I want to be a...
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
part of that process. And that, yeah, I remember that when I told you and you're like, I want to audition. Oh my God, I love that. That feeds me so much as a director and choreographer and it makes me feel great because I, when you're on the flip side of auditions, when you're on the other side of the table and I always want to put a very warm, make the room warm. And at the same time, you're also in a pressure cooker situation because you need to find the right people, the folks that are gonna bring your vision to life. And that's that in like two seconds, you know, and just like, and so on the other side of the table, how I tell my students to like, we're under a lot of pressure as well.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
Of course not the same kind of pressure as the auditionee, but on the other side, it's also trying to figure out if this is gonna be a good working relationship. Somebody that's come to audition who is showing us something that they think we wanna see, does that artist down to their core, is that person the right fit for this production? And so there's, yeah, so there's always that.
Jessica
Mm-hmm.
Jessica Chen
that element to it too. But when there's an artist that's like, I want to work with you and they're the right fit, oh, that is like butter. It's good. Yeah.
Jessica
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's something I always try to remind my friends and my students who are auditioning is that the creative team number one, really does want you to do well. I mean, maybe not every creative team, but any creative team I've been on really wants you to do well, because they want you to do well. And also because it makes their job easier. If you come in and you do well. And it's not just like, oh, you're the best singer. And that's why we're gonna hire you there.
Jessica Chen
There it is.
Jessica
so many different factors involved, but we need you like you need us. We need each other. Neither of us could do it without each other. So there's a mutual respect and a mutual, it's collaboration, even when you're walking into an audition, how much do you respond to what the director's asking you to change about this side that you're doing? What if you, if the,
Jessica Chen
Right.
Jessica Chen
Collaboration. Yeah.
Jessica Chen
That's right. Yeah.
Jessica
choreographer, like I remember when we did the Fiddler auditions, we were Marla came around to as the associate choreographer in the audition, she came around and worked with each one of us during the callback. She gave attention to each one of us. What could we work on? What did we have a question about? Because she wanted to know, number one, I'm sure she wanted to know that she could work with us, because it was going to be a fast process. How do we take in
Jessica Chen
Mm-hmm.
Jessica
the information, are we empowered and responsible enough to approach her if we had an issue? Like it's a whole, that kind of energy. And I've been into, most rooms are not like that. Most rooms are not like that, but that was like the perfect way to hold a room in my opinion, you did the same thing. And I loved when everyone was doing the choreography in pairs.
Jessica Chen
Right.
Jessica
in the callback and Sumi and Alex were together and they did that whole fun thing. We talked about that actually. Sumi I interviewed first. I can't remember if I told you. Yeah, we talked about it. So this is a full circle. But just seeing that like their connection together, the fun decision that they made for her to jump into his arms, they made a choice. They were having fun it looked like. They
Jessica Chen
Yeah, they did. Oh, you did. Yeah, they were so great.
Jessica
they took what was in front of them and they did something with it and it entertained us and it captivated us. And it's not like it was right or wrong, it just clicked.
Jessica Chen
Totally. Yeah. It was great.
Jessica
Okay, so we definitely need to wrap this thing up. We've been going for years. We're gonna need a part two. I love you, I admire you. You are one of my favorite humans and artists ever. And I can't believe I've only known you for like three months. That's so crazy. But when you're working in an environment like that together and you're working together every single day and then you go back to the hotel together and then you wake up and you're in the car together, all that stuff.
Jessica Chen
I love you.
Jessica Chen
Yeah.
Jessica
It's pretty intensive. It's so intense. So yeah, I'm so excited to keep supporting you and I hope we get to work together again soon. And if I ever dance again, it'll be with you for sure. Yes, I'll dance again. Yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it, we'll do it, we'll get there. Thank you so much for this conversation.
Jessica Chen
So intense. Yeah.
Jessica Chen
Yeah, me too.
Jessica Chen
You will dance again. I'm gonna get you to dance again.